Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

Villain is a TAGfish regular. Probably a small winner in the games. Hero hasn't been out of line. I've 3b a few times PF but haven't seen a flop yet.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $197.15
MP: $168.80
CO: $233.25
BTN: $359.65
Hero (SB): $294.10
BB: $119.50

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $7</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $24</font>, 1 fold, BTN calls $17

Flop: ($50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $37</font>, BTN calls $37

Turn: ($117) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $90</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $233.10 all-in</font>...

Thoughts?

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

I doubt you are folding out anything that you are ahead of except maaaaaaybe AQ. The thing that I do like about this line is that you are getting value from 88 and 99. However, I would tend to think that he may check behind with those hands a bit more. I would say that this is slightly towards the neg ev side but overall good for metagame.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

I dunno. There seem to be more hands in the range AA-QQ/KQ+ than A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] type hands.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

Meh, I'd call and c/f river prob. Pretty lame spot.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

depending on how much i think this guy will bluff, i like calling down much more. i'd put his range almost entirely on low to mid pp's and given the turn Q and him opting to bet i think he's choosing to turn his hand into a bluff rather than play for showdown value.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

I think it's pretty close. A bet is probably going to fold a lot of hands we beat like 88 that might bet the turn, and giving them a free card isn't horrible.

I think the best reason for doing this is when we have AK and give up on the turn...our turn c/r in this spot makes us much more difficult to play against.

Of course, he's going to have AQs, KQs, AA-QQ, too. But that's the nature of the game. A turn c/f is also fine, in my opinion. But I really don't like a lead at all.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

I would rather lead the turn, so you get to know where you are at in the hand. If a weak TAG raises or calls you are propably beat and you lay down the hand.
Here you risk your whole stack on a bluff and villains line looks very strong.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

I like it with history. he's probably frustrated

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

Your thoughts on these thoughts:

--I think he's going to 4b KK+ a fair amount of the time pf given that we are around 150bb's. And the Q falling knocks off some QQ hands he might hold.

--I think if I lead turn strong, he's folding all worse hands including flush draws.

--I think if I check turn, he puts me on AK and a TAGfish often will bet in that spot to take it down. So, imo he folds 99 to a bet from me but bets it himself when I check.

--I could c/c turn but what's the merit in that? He's not betting his 9's again on the river. And if he does have a flush draw, which I think he'd also bet turn with, I might as well charge him.

--And if he has a better hand, well that happens sometimes.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

I agree with points 1 through 3 and a lead is pretty much not good. I think that a shove may be slightly better than cc cuz you are going to get looked up by 99 and tt here every once in a while but im not totally sold on that.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

hum yeah on second thought i think he does look you up here relatively often with 99 or TT, and you do get to charge a steep price to spade draws so c/r is &gt; c/c

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

Your thoughts on these counter-thoughts:

- If he has a PP under Q, he will frequently fold to the stack-a-donk.

- If he has AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he will call.

- In order for your stack-a-donk to be +EV here, you are relying on him having exactly Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] very frequently.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

Never really wrong against a regular.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your thoughts on these counter-thoughts:

- If he has a PP under Q, he will frequently fold to the stack-a-donk.

- If he has AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he will call.

- In order for your stack-a-donk to be +EV here, you are relying on him having exactly Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] very frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree he's usually going to fold pairs worse than Jacks to my c/r. But, am I getting more money out of those hands anyway? Is he going to call if I open push river? Is he going to bet his 99 if I check river? idk.

Once I forgo leading turn, the c/r is really for the purpose of charging his spade draws of which there's alot more of them then just AsXs.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

My thoughts are that he's folding every hand we beat and calling with everything that beats us. I dont think thats good. I would rather call and call non spade river....but I'd prob just call turn and fold river or fold turn.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

don't know if I'd call it a stack-a-donk since you probably can't expect to get called by worse &gt;30% or so but it looks fine to me.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts are that he's folding every hand we beat and calling with everything that beats us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But, when we take the elevator up to level 2, we get $92 out of worse hands. And he pays $233 to hit his flush in a $117 pot. So isn't there some merit to that?

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

meh I think it's ok if I he might make a crying call with TT or worse, if not then I think cc may be better. I guess if you think he could be holding spades it's fine

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts are that he's folding every hand we beat and calling with everything that beats us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But, when we take the elevator up to level 2, we get $92 out of worse hands. And he pays $233 to hit his flush in a $117 pot. So isn't there some merit to that?

[/ QUOTE ]not if he has a better hand a lot more often than a worse hand and a flush draw hardly ever.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

Imo he has a worse hand here more than a better hand, with a spade draw occasionally.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Imo he has a worse hand here alot more than a better hand, with a spade draw occasionally.

[/ QUOTE ]then I think its good [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

*edit* i should pay more attention to stacksizes ... if you really think he's frustrated this is fine

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Imo he has a worse hand here alot more than a better hand, with a spade draw occasionally.

[/ QUOTE ]

totally agree. Too many people get wrapped up w/ whats he calling w/ that we beat. Doesnt matter w/ this amount of money in the pot vs his range which is a lot of smaller pairs, air, and spades.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

i like it

it gives the villain an opportunity to make a wrong "hero" call with 88-TT, where he probably would not put in any more money on the river since he has good showdown value. In addition, it allows you to get more value out of donks who call with Axss, where they would obviously shut down on a non spade river.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
*edit* i should pay more attention to stacksizes ... if you really think he's frustrated this is fine

[/ QUOTE ]

I should say "frustration factor" played no role in this hand. I guess I wasn't completely clear in the OP. I've maybe 3b 3 times at the table so far; doing it to villain once and 2 other guys once each spread out over a normal course of time.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

Love it if he’s one to make hero calls w/ 88-TT which are probably a decent part of his range here. However, I think when he calls here he usually has you beat and you often fold out hands you’re way ahead of. I’m assuming his range is pretty much [AQ / 77 – TT / Air]???

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

I like it against certain regs. But I think its thin, as his range is probably pretty split between hands you beat and hands you don't.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

After reading responses and getting additional color from AJ, I still like it quite a bit.

I'd add, however, that while the guy is getting 3.1:1 on his call and can probably talk himself into it with quite a few hands we crush, he’s correct to call with Axs with 12 outs which worries me if we think that’s a big part of his range.

Edit to reword awkward 1st attempt.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

Re the "you are behind when called" thing, I don't think that's the issue:
if he has a worse made hand, c/r is best since he isn't betting the river with them.
if he has a better made hand, c/r=c/c because you can't call turn and fold river imo.
if he's drawing, c/r is better
if he has a random bluff, c/c is better, but a pure bluff is pretty unlikely i think.

Re: Stack-a-donk in 3b pot?
 

i think this is ok, obv would be better with a looser image. If he bet something like 70 would be worse i think.