Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, 30/60 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): 3,620
UTG+1: 1,185
MP1: 2,030
MP2: 1,170
CO: 1,315
BTN: 690
SB: 8,570
BB: 1,305

Pre-Flop: (90) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to 120</font>, 5 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to 180</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to 240</font>, SB calls 60

Flop: (540) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets 540</font>, Hero calls 540

Turn: (1,620) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets 1,620</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to 2,840 and is All-In</font>, SB calls 1,220

River: (7,300) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: 7,300 Pot
Hero showed 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a full house, Sixes full of Aces) and LOST (-3,620 NET)
SB showed 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a full house, Aces full of Fives) and WON 7,300 (+3,680 NET)

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

Preflop - don't minraise either time. Once he three-bets, just call. The raise to 240 is just being silly.

Flop - lets assume he is not bluffing. What hands are you beating when you call? You can't beat any pair aside from 22-44 and any ace just outflopped you. You are calling - either fold if you believe you are drawing to two outs, or move in now if you believe he can fold.

Turn - once you hit your miracle card, get the money in and after that its just luck.

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

I probably would have folded after he bet the flop, guessing he had A and high kicker after the preflop betting. After that I think you just got very unlucky against someone who wasn't likely to fold two pair.

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

1. You don't need to show the results, unless you put it in a font color that hides it. The results won't make a good play bad, or a bad play good.

2. You have a relatively large stack, and you got involved with the one player who could bust you. Unless you think the player is capable of semi-bluffing the pot with a heart draw on the flop, you're either way ahead or way behind. I wouldn't have called the pot-sized bet on the flop.

3. Turn bet - it's plausible that he could be playing with aces or fives, but it's understandably difficult to fold a full house, and the push to make him pay to see the last card is a good bet, since he's already signalled that he has a hand and will likely pay you off. At that point, it's just poor luck.

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

I can't understand why he chose to raise and call a reraise with A3

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

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I can't understand why he chose to raise and call a reraise with A3

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1. He sucks.
2. Minraise.

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

Do you mean he saw a minraise in front and thought hero was trying it on?

He must have put Hero on a range which included an A where the kicker would have beaten 3. After the flop he beats to see where he is and gets called. I would have thought Hero had an A and probably better kicker and he still calls the reraise on the turn. All in all SB play was very bad and got very lucky (I think, but believe me I am no expert as my pokeroffice results prove [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

What are you trying to accomplish with the min-raising? You should analyze your plays and make sure there's a reason for everything you do.

Flop, I would fold for a pot sized bet. If he min-reraised, there's a good chance he's super strong, and otherwise there's a strong chance he has either a pocket pair or an Ace, which leaves you way behind.

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

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What are you trying to accomplish with the min-raising? You should analyze your plays and make sure there's a reason for everything you do.


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Well, as I've only been (attempting to) play poker for a week, now while reading up on it at the same, time, I'm not quite ..ahem .. up to speed on the nuances of raising .... heck I'm not even out of neutral yet [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'm still just getting up to speed with reading the board [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

With 66, should I even be raising? ... or even playing the hand for that matter?

I've read different things some saying don't ever raise pre-flop unless you have AA, KK, AK, other things I've read have suggested if you're going to get into a pot, start with a raise to knock out anybody with marginal hands.

My "reasons" at the moment are a mixture of testing things that I've been reading, and a lot of guessing-hunches [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

That's why I've been only playing freerolls, though I might start trying the penny-stakes stuff ... after a few more thousand practice / freeroll hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Mike

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

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Preflop - don't minraise either time. Once he three-bets, just call. The raise to 240 is just being silly.


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As I wrote in my other post, admittedly I have much to learn about how/when/what to bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Flop - lets assume he is not bluffing. What hands are you beating when you call? You can't beat any pair aside from 22-44 and any ace just outflopped you. You are calling - either fold if you believe you are drawing to two outs, or move in now if you believe he can fold.


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I guess I only called as I thought 66 55, was a decent hand but not unbeatable, so was hesitant to go all in. The last few tourneys I played in I've been (a bit) more aggressive and have had some improved results.

Mike

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

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2. You have a relatively large stack, and you got involved with the one player who could bust you. Unless you think the player is capable of semi-bluffing the pot with a heart draw on the flop, you're either way ahead or way behind. I wouldn't have called the pot-sized bet on the flop.


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I thought 66 55 was a decent hand.

I guess any "flop pairs" always have the potential for a fullhouse, so should I really only be playing two pairs when I have two different hole cards paired with the board? ... and no other pairs showing on the board?

What would you want to have for hole cards in order to call with that flop?

Or do you mean you would have raised ... or folded with my hand?

Mike

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

In early position, 66 is really too weak to play unless the table is really passive. Even if this is the case you should be able to play well post-flop and you should raise 3/4 x BB from UTG.

When he min-raises just call. Fold to the flop-bet. It is very likely he holds an ace and the pot bet is bigger than most players bet when the are continuation betting. You got lucky on the turn and the shove was correct because he has been playing strongly making it likely he will call. You got unlucky on the last card but the hand was played quite poorly.

BTW, i read something about it being difficult to fold a full house. You should almost never fold a full house, especially at lower stakes. Its almost never +EV.

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

Pretty bad play and the ace falling on the river sucks BUT mostly there were just some pretty big mistakes that you probably could have avoided.

1. fold PF
2. don't minraise three bet, call once your in
3. stop and think before calling the flop, it's pretty obvious he has you beat here, so if he is capable of laying down a weak ace then it would be possible to put in a sizeable reraise, but the second he bets, when you closed the action on the flop, you should know you are beat and insta fold imo.
4.Nice job getting the money in when you hit your 2 outer on the turn, and it sucks he rivered the ace.

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

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I thought 66 55 was a decent hand.

I guess any "flop pairs" always have the potential for a fullhouse, so should I really only be playing two pairs when I have two different hole cards paired with the board? ... and no other pairs showing on the board?

What would you want to have for hole cards in order to call with that flop?

Or do you mean you would have raised ... or folded with my hand?

Mike

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In itself, the flop pair helps you in that situation because that makes fewer cards out there that the villain pairs. But with small pairs (your hole cards, not the flop), epecially out of position, you're going to need help to stay in the hand. Oftentimes, you'll either hit your set and make a bundle, or you'll be folding to a flop bet.

Plus, with the ace on the flop, it's more likely than any other card to have made a pair for the villain. This, more than the flop pair, would lead me to fold to a pot-sized bet.

Re: Is this a \"bad beat\" or just poor playing ?
 

Hey man, I want to say your honest attitude is perfect for becoming a winning player and that's great. There's some great strategy advice here already but I'm going to clutter up your thread anyways.


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With 66, should I even be raising? ... or even playing the hand for that matter?

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9-handed game, you are in worst position with 8 people to act behind you, 66 is simply not strong enough to open-raise. In this spot, I would open-raise JJ or better pairs, and AQs or better Aces. The raise would be about 3x the big blind, because min-raising only encourages people to come in with speculative hands to win a big pot. As long as the table is not super-aggressive (lots of raising) pre-flop, a limp is good, because you are risking 60 chips to try and flop a set and win a large pot with minimal chip risk.

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I've read different things some saying don't ever raise pre-flop unless you have AA, KK, AK, other things I've read have suggested if you're going to get into a pot, start with a raise to knock out anybody with marginal hands.

My "reasons" at the moment are a mixture of testing things that I've been reading, and a lot of guessing-hunches


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Great stuff, you just gotta try everything and see what works. As far as the raising only AA/KK/AK and such, everything in poker is so situational ie. number of players at the table, your position, looseness of the game, level of the tournament, etc.

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That's why I've been only playing freerolls, though I might start trying the penny-stakes stuff ... after a few more thousand practice / freeroll hands

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Best of luck dude, you gotta try it all and see what you like best