88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

9 man $6.50 SNG, all 9 still remain with blinds at 25/50
My stack was about 1100 at the time. I had no good reads and everyone in the pot had me covered (or just about).

4 of the 7 to act in front of me had already limped in and I had 88 in the SB.

My 2 thoughts were either limp behind for set value, or push all-in to try and grab the 275 in the middle after everyone had shown a good amount of weakness by limping. The factor that made me decide to push all-in was the thought that the BB might see 5 limps as passive and try the big all-in steal himself.

What's the best play to make here? Set value limp, all-in steal, or a smaller raise?

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

9 times out of 10 the complete is better, imo

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

I limp. People love to make hero calls with their garbage, unfortunatley its usually one or two overs which hit 100%.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

i can think of no worse play than wasting money raising out of small blind with 88. what do you think you accomplish by making this play of raising out of small blind? what are you trying to accomplish? you will end up building a huge pot that will represent 50% of your stack (or more) and will then make it way too enticing to steal when you miss your set and inevitably the K9o just busted you.
also you didnt mention where the limpers came from but what are you going to do when the UTG limper shoves into your raise? you have just committed yourself by raising. also if you are going to raise to fold from this spot then why raise.
im not sure i think the pot is big enough to steal even in the next 50 100 blind level.
bottom line there is no raise in this spot that is +EV.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

dick, he obviously wants to push, and not make some retarded raise

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

Yea, in a 6.5 I like a complete too.
I don't hate a push with so much deadmoney tho.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

then the pot isnt a big enough % of chips in play to justify. i would like to know if you guys would think shoving at 50 100 is enough +EV to justify the play of risking tourney life in a flip.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
then the pot isnt a big enough % of chips in play to justify. i would like to know if you guys would think shoving at 50 100 is enough +EV to justify the play of risking tourney life in a flip.

[/ QUOTE ]

gtfo, it's surely an ok move, but most seem to agree that completing is better.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

Those t275 are 25% of our stack.
I'd really like to have them.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
then the pot isnt a big enough % of chips in play to justify. i would like to know if you guys would think shoving at 50 100 is enough +EV to justify the play of risking tourney life in a flip.

[/ QUOTE ]

at 50/100 you end up stealing preflop sometimes and other times you'll be against dead money in a flip making it worth it. With BB 50 you're relying on fold equity, probably no one has much and hopefully they aren't stupid to call you with garbage. Trying to flop a set like its your job is obvious plus equity too though, moreso with the 50 chip BB IMO.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Those t275 are 25% of our stack.
I'd really like to have them.

[/ QUOTE ]
i might be thinking about this wrong so let me know.
the goal of SNG is to get all the chips. the 275 is 25% of your stack but only 2% of all the chips in play. it seems you are risking too much to gain to little headway in the over all outcome of the SNG.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

The goal is to maximize your expectation.
Your expectation is largely a function of your stack size.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

I think shoving is fine since you are a little short, if you had a bigger stack then I really would rarely shove. I'd prob 50/50 shove/complete in this spot.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

Thanks for all the input, guys. Just so you know what happened, I did indeed shove, BB folded, UTG called, and everyone else folded. He turned over KJo and flopped a J to knock me out.

Lets switch spots, if you got 1500 chips and are in UTG's spot (lets pretend you were forced to limp UTG with KJo), would you call this all-in? I want to know if he was right in calling me. All he has seen me do so far is raise preflop, c-bet flop heads up and then fold to a raise.

I don't think his call was +EV long run. In his spot, I'd have to figure I was up against at least an ace, or if lucky I would be at best against an underpair and be racing. I can't see an all-in against 5 active players being a total bluff, and I'd be worried about another caller behind me.

I just like analyzing the play from everyone's perspective when I can to maybe pick up on things I don't see when I make my play.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

calling deep AIs with KJo is pretty retarded.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling deep AIs with KJo is pretty retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]
As is allowing someone to force you to limp UTG.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

You're all nits.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're all nits.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that it's a 6.50.
If T9s calls a shove, 88 becomes a complete..

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

6:06:24 PM AMT: completing is obviously fine when they call real loose, but even 88 is close to a value shove
6:06:35 PM sence: yeah i'd do this in a 33 for sure
6:06:43 PM AMT: im never completing TT in a 6.50, probably not 99 either
6:06:49 PM AMT: i mean in this spot
6:06:53 PM sence: but back when i played 6.5s i ran into biiiiiiiig variance by doing those pushes
6:07:05 PM sence: i think i instapush TT, and 99 is close but a push but 88 hum
6:07:08 PM sence: feels like borderline
6:07:10 PM AMT: yeah
6:07:14 PM AMT: if the table is reasonable though
6:07:17 PM AMT: even at a 6.50
6:07:25 PM AMT: like weak/tight
6:07:35 PM sence: yeah, then you might do it
6:07:49 PM AMT: buy oin is relevant tho
6:07:53 PM sence: but mostly you can sneak to high blinds and steal it out then because ppl play very wrong strategy
6:08:00 PM sence: here you will often flip with dead
6:08:06 PM sence: dunno
6:08:15 PM sence: its profitable but prolly not as much as just completing
6:08:22 PM AMT: the problem is that 88 is so close to have sooo many limping handsw dominated
6:08:32 PM AMT: 87, A2-A8, Kx
6:08:33 PM AMT: etc etc
6:08:39 PM AMT: it pains me to watch those hands see a flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
6:08:48 PM AMT: and also with 1500 i wouldnt
6:08:53 PM AMT: the stack is influential
6:08:54 PM sence: yeah
6:08:54 PM sence: right
6:08:58 PM AMT: hes lost almost 1/3 his stack
6:09:01 PM sence: as i wrote pot is already 25%
6:09:14 PM AMT: the reality is
6:10:05 PM AMT: im completing 77, so this is going to be close to neutral regardless, and will come down to table play/loose feel to limping ranges. the more people can limp A2/87 as opposed to QJ/JT/T9 the more i want to shove
6:10:17 PM AMT: and when youre aroumnd these pp's its all straight value
6:10:26 PM AMT: you dont necessarily love a call but you pretty much always expect to be ahead
6:10:51 PM sence: yeah
6:10:57 PM AMT: did that all make sense?
6:11:10 PM sence: it did, and it's really close for me too
6:11:21 PM sence: well ppl will call your push with 55 at times
6:11:25 PM sence: hum
6:11:28 PM AMT: thats the thing too
6:11:36 PM AMT: the range of limping when examining just pps
6:11:39 PM AMT: is sooo much higher in the lower pps
6:11:41 PM AMT: than the ones above
6:11:41 PM sence: i just hate it when i flip against baaaad players
6:11:45 PM AMT: and they never fold em at this level either
6:11:47 PM AMT: yeah
6:11:49 PM AMT: agreed.
6:11:57 PM AMT: you can paste part of this convo if you want to teach the n00bs
6:12:04 PM AMT: free coaching almost [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
6:12:10 PM AMT: in the thread i mean
6:12:17 PM AMT: cause i didnt contribute too much, i just called everyoen a nit

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

i like to limp this pot, due to your position, you are either going to build a giant pot OOP, I really don't like shove, so I think call is the best choice here. If you limp, you are still OOP and should proceed to play pot carefully. 88 in SB with like 5 limpers is not a favorable spot to be. Try to hit set value.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

can someone please explain to me why they hate shoving? this thread is making me sad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

I do not think a shove is a terrible play. I just don't think it's necessarily right in this spot.
- why are we racing for all our chips in the first level with all 9 players remaining? And if we are willing to race now, who says that there aren't other players willing to race at this stage in the SNG. Doesn't that seem to take away from our FE? I understand that by winning the pot uncontested PF we pick up 25% more of our stack, however, in the scheme of chips on the table, we really don't pick up that much larger % of chips on whole table. Risk-Reward does not seem to match up.
-While we would prob clear up a lot of the field with a large shove 5x the pot, I would be very weary of UTG and those in late position. They could have limped with marginal hands like KJ, Q10, QJ, 10J, etc.
- Although this is a leak of mine, I truly hate overshoves and over bets and tend to call down a lot more loose when I feel I'm being pushed around or I feel it is a blatant shove to pick up 25% more chips from opponent.

Also, I recently read a thread about how if some players have ANY chips invested into a pot, how much more willing they are to defend those chips, So I feel like this shove might open up some people's ranges on calls. Granted we might get 77 down to 22 to call, but those are our best case scenarios.

Bottom line, I feel like the return on our investment is not worth shoving and this is just a $6.50 SNG, more people will be calling with A7 or KJ than some think.

It's a tough spot definitely, it's one of those spots where I almost need to hit an 8 for set or top end of open ended straight draw with overpair to board, to feel comfortable in this spot.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

at 50/100 you end up stealing preflop sometimes and other times you'll be against dead money in a flip making it worth it. With BB 50 you're relying on fold equity, probably no one has much and hopefully they aren't stupid to call you with garbage. Trying to flop a set like its your job is obvious plus equity too though, moreso with the 50 chip BB IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

#2

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

You guys should only take the number of bbs as a general guideline.
What really matters is the potsize when it comes to you.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

There seems to be a misconception that people are only calling his shove with premiums. I have played these $6.50 SNG"s which I believe are turbos as well. A large shove, in retrospect due to the # of poor players at these levels, IMO will only egg on a marginal hand to take a shot. If it's a turbo ur always less than 2 mins away from a level change and doubling up is always on their minds. I think shoving is Fine, however, you just hafta put it in ur mind that some speculative hand might call you to gamble it up. So shoving for strictly FE may be incorrect, Hero should be knowing there is a decent chance he/she will be racing for all the chips.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

what everyone seems to be failing to "merge" on with their description of the situation is that players at this level are limping all of the hands that we have dominated/are far far ahead of with a ton of overlay and almost 1/3 our stack gone. so, when people say "just recognize that when you shove people are more inclined to look you up with speculative hands", thats a good thing. yes, sometimes youre flipping, but youre either flipping with a ton of overlay or youre way ahead with a ton of overlay, either way with a healthy amount of FE. take these things into consideration, and specifically relating to the pot size as sence touched on and not just how many bb's are in your stack.

again, not saying you *need* to shove here, and at certain tables perhaps i wouldnt, but if 88 is not a shove its very very close, 99 and TT are both shoves in this particular spot. when people state *avid* opposition, it just shows me people arent relating all of the relevant factors.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

I agree that 88 is close for shoving or limping, thats why I just go ahead an limp. 99+ shoving is probably best. You aren't so short that giving up this pot will devastate your stack. I've already said that hero calls beat me 100% though.

I wouldn't be against shoving, I just don't like it as much.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

my problem with shoving here is that you still have enough to steal blinds at next 2 levels and with out risking your tournament life. not to metion that those blinds are worth a lot more.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

Why are they worth more?

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
my problem with shoving here is that you still have enough to steal blinds at next 2 levels and with out risking your tournament life. not to metion that those blinds are worth a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "risking the tournament life" factor is weighed in when we decide whether to shove or not.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

PokerStars Game #13344022548: Tournament #67700159, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/11/19 - 18:06:13 (ET)
Table '67700159 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: CubanCigarr (2990 in chips)
Seat 2: Alfparis (1465 in chips)
Seat 3: FantasyPro (1295 in chips)
Seat 4: TheJaguar1 (1740 in chips)
Seat 5: dickkemp (1055 in chips)
Seat 6: bedogado (1185 in chips)
Seat 8: ratZ0198 (2340 in chips)
Seat 9: ahartj (1430 in chips)
FantasyPro: posts small blind 25
TheJaguar1: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dickkemp [7d 7s]
dickkemp: calls 50
bedogado: calls 50
ratZ0198: folds
ahartj: calls 50
CubanCigarr: folds
Alfparis: calls 50
FantasyPro: calls 25
TheJaguar1: raises 300 to 350

i think this hand hits around the same area what would you do here. once again im SSish and lots of dead money. what if my hand was 77 or 99. even tens or jacks?

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are they worth more?

[/ QUOTE ]
later on when the blinds are bigger they are a bigger % of the chips in play. this will matter when that 150 you just stole means an extra 300 later when you have to flip a coin. also the blinds that are dead. minute but every bit helps.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

i probally complete orginal hand
i do not mind shoving though BUT
u will be called a lot though at the 6.50's from my experience.
raising would be retarded imo.(i usually go with if the pot represents 15-20% of my stack and i plan on making a raising i will just shove , a few exceptions obv)
shove or complete.
at 50/100 with the limpers this is a instashove with our 10bb stack. no other move IMO ( i know it wasnt 50/100 in OP i just seen some discussion about it)

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

This discussion has been very helpful.

What would be best in this similar situation if say button min raised? I'm not too sure how much strength to credit a player when they min raise a bunch of limpers. Doesn't sound like high PP to me because those hands would probably be looking to get heads up and limit the field. Min raise after limpers sounds more like high suited connectors or something else looking to build a big pot.

Would shoving against these limpers and the min raiser be less profitable? I'd probably be so confused that I'd be tempted to fold my 88 there, but that sounds like it just loses me money.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

Allin with the 88 is of course correct, this isnt even close.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Allin with the 88 is of course correct, this isnt even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because most the time we will get folds and increase our stack by 25%? And if we do get called we are almost certainly flipping and the dead money in the pot warrents this?

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Allin with the 88 is of course correct, this isnt even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because most the time we will get folds and increase our stack by 25%? And if we do get called we are almost certainly flipping or dominating him, but rarely are dominated and the dead money in the pot warrents this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Allin with the 88 is of course correct, this isnt even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because most the time we will get folds and increase our stack by 25%? And if we do get called we are almost certainly flipping or dominating him, but rarely are dominated and the dead money in the pot warrents this?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks , by certainly flipping i meant we are rarely dominated. I didn't think about the cases where we are dominating the caller though! Guess it's hard for me to imagine someone calling with 22-77 here (probally because it wouldn't cross my mind to) but it definitly happens occasionaly.

Re: 88 in SB, limped around preflop.
 

Maybe my game is too leaky for the 6.5s but I am happily shoving this all day with our stack+deadmoney - big overlay and when looked up the worst we are is a coinflip here 97% of the time