(stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

If the guy appears to have a high only hand and you think you have it beat, then no problem.

If the value of his hand is ambiguous (showing 8 or lower, could be that pair, pair of lower value, 3 low cards, or absolute crap) what do you want to defend with, if anything? Do you usually throw away pairs here with no real low possibility?

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

The answer to your question will be very dependent on the ante and bring-in structure, as well as the stats you are using to ID the steal.

Are we assuming it will be heads up?

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

Ah, good point.

I play on pokerstars and full tilt.

Pokerstars is .1sb ante with .5sb bringin. I'm getting terrific odds to call. There is .8sb in antes, .5sb BI, 1sb bet for a total of 2.3sb .5sb so I'm getting 4.6:1 to call

Full tilt is .2sb ante with a varying bringing, but usually around .25sb. So there is 1.6sb + .25sb + 1sb bet = 2.85 and I have to call .75 so that's 3.8:1 to call

Yeah, it'll be heads up - I'm referring to times when someone bets in last to act or 2nd to last to act into a pretty meh up card like 8-J, and I'm last to act in the bringin.

This is an auto-bet situation for a lot of people, I do try to note people who never steal but since I play low stakes it doesn't come up thaaat much. If the person is an auto better then obviously the chance it's a steal is 100-vpip. Either it's a high chance, or they play so much crap that I'll want to call pretty widely.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

i will pretty much call any late position steal with a razz had that is not 872 or similair, small pair small kicker, big pair in the hole, 3 flush if live with 2 babies.

alot of players with play hands like AQ2, which really isn't that bad a play against a steal ev wise its just hard to play. I will usually toss it in the muck.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

I don't see the point of calling with a razz hand unless it has reasonable straight or flush possibility. I would include one-gappers as reasonable, and 2 flushes as reasonable. Otherwise you're drawing to a chop or will have to fold 4th/5th a lot. People do seem to always call me with 3 low cards. I think I'd rather have any pair or some other high hand only than 3 low cards. I don't have any reasoning to back that up, it justs seems better to me. I've been throwing away small pairs in this spot a lot though.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

Depends on his range which should be a function of pot size.

In the extreme case of a heads up match with standard antes I defend only with legit hands, going as far as throwing away some small split pairs with big kickers.

In a full game with a large ante I am undecided but in addition to the above hands I think you should add in some hands like K62 or AK2.

Also in the latter situation I would consider reraising any razz hand or better.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

Small pair - baby -> AAbaby is my prefered, or 2 out of 3 cards under their door card. If its an ace.. its a tough call, since they can show strength with a good board.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

hmm..i guess i mean razz hands without an eight, so 237 being the worst hand. They are much easier to play any other hand your gonna protect your bi with

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

hey if he can have anything then you should play with hands that can beat that. unless of course you only feel you can win by making the best hand.
since there is no real positonal advantage you are both on the same field.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

If villain has a low door card and catches low on 4th street, it's going to be hard not to get outplayed if I have a big door card, so if I have something like JJ7, I would rather it be (JJ)7 than (J7)J.


Premium hands for me are high low cards 877, 876 etc., pairs with low door cards, and hand with an A or 8 in the door, and all the good Stud8 hands.

Frankly, a lot depends on my history with villain, and my perceived ability to make some money off of him. I don't believe in "defending" in poker (except in some late tourney situations), but I do believe in money-making opportunities. If I think villain is stealing, and I don't have much of a hand, I fold to re-enforce his behavior and get the money when I hold something.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

if you're the bringin and its folded to the guy next to you or the one before that, i'm pretty sure you shouldn't be folding any 3 low card hands, even 278.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but I never do.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe in "defending" in poker (except in some late tourney situations), but I do believe in money-making opportunities.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this a lot.

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If I think villain is stealing, and I don't have much of a hand, I fold to re-enforce his behavior and get the money when I hold something.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is my general approach as well.

I tend to see stud/8 hands as playable or unplayable, and I tend not to open up my standards too much just because the other guy "could" be raising with anything. Perhaps my (99)4 is likely to be the "best" hand, but I frankly have no clue how to play it, and if ante-stealing is commonplace in a stud/8 game, I'm scouting hold'em tables.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

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I don't see the point of calling with a razz hand unless it has reasonable straight or flush possibility.

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For the chance to freeroll. If you put them on a steal attempt, and you catch either a 4th low, or pair one of your hole cards, you are in a pretty good position to take the pot down on 4th or 5th, or else split at showdown.

Is the rake bigger than the antes and bring-in?

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the point of calling with a razz hand unless it has reasonable straight or flush possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the chance to freeroll. If you put them on a steal attempt, and you catch either a 4th low, or pair one of your hole cards, you are in a pretty good position to take the pot down on 4th or 5th, or else split at showdown.


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Right but most razz hands don't particularly have scoop potential.

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Is the rake bigger than the antes and bring-in?

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No, I don't think so. But if we split we'll probably chop up about 1.5sb

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

In a late-night conversation in the Plaza coffee shop during the WSOP a few years back (while it was still at Binion's), Andrew Prock tried to convince me that if someone showing a low card in the door in steal position raised my bring-in, I should raise back at him, simply because of the likelihood of picking up the pot on fourth street on those occasions where the attacker bricks and I catch good. Andrew's claim is that this is a profitable play.

I am generous in giving up my bring-in when I don't have cards; when I do have cards I try to hit back hard. I don't like pure razz hands like 852, but any better low starter is worth fighting back with.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a late-night conversation in the Plaza coffee shop during the WSOP a few years back (while it was still at Binion's), Andrew Prock tried to convince me that if someone showing a low card in the door in steal position raised my bring-in, I should raise back at him, simply because of the likelihood of picking up the pot on fourth street on those occasions where the attacker bricks and I catch good. Andrew's claim is that this is a profitable play.



[/ QUOTE ]

this actually sounds interesting...

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

just to clarify, what do you guys consider "steal position" to be?

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

I'm thinking first to act with 0-2 people between them and the BI. For more timid players, 0-1 between them and the BI.

On the other side of the coin, how often do people steal, and with what kinds of hands? I'm sticking mostly with high hands here, since as Ray Zee notes, short handed or late position with no callers, stud/8 plays find with the best high hand.

As the last person to act I often don't even want to get involved with razz hands that are worse than 1-gap straights although I make exceptions for 3 flush hands and 3 card 7s with an A, preferably in the door. It just seems like a high variance low expectation play.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

if it's folded to me and i'm right next to the bringin, ill complete any 3 low cards, any pair, any A door, any 3 flush, any A-low-X. if the bringin is aggressive i usually just toss 3 big cards

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

In your experience, what percentage of the time does the BI fold?

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In your experience, what percentage of the time does the BI fold?

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i really have no idea, and of course it depends on who the bring in is. if BI is tight then open up your late position raising range, and if BI is very loose then fold some of the weaker hands you would normally raise with and make him pay with strong hands.

it's a very high% when you have an A door, so not completing (xx)A is horrible when ur right next to the bringin. but none of the hands i listed are actually bad hands, so it's not like u need the BI to fold a huge % of the time.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if it's folded to me and i'm right next to the bringin, ill complete any 3 cards,

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if it's folded to me and i'm right next to the bringin, ill complete any 3 cards,

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

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?

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

Completing any 3 is silly, because part of the goal of stealing is to get the other guy to fold, and to show an automatic profit he needs to fold a lot. You get called a LOT more in stud/8 I think.

Also don't forget you're picking on the same guy every time. He's gonna get wise and play back at you, more likely than not.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

At $5/10 it's $5 for $9.5. Not completing most hands in 1 position off the BI is for loose-passive fish games. I mean honestly maybe I'll fold if I have 8-T showing, but not that much else.

The gy being picked on is not going to have an easy time to wise up, because such steal opportunities are fairly uncommon.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

But he's getting like 15:3 or 15:4 to call, right? (I don't know the BI for 5/10... $1?)

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

Typically a hand that flat calls from the BI will fold to a bet if he does not catch a low card on 4th, especially if you have a high card showing.

If he catches high and still calls that's pretty scary.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

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Typically a hand that flat calls from the BI will fold to a bet if he does not catch a low card on 4th, especially if you have a high card showing.


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not true at all. most people peel 4th unless u catch really good.

Re: (stud8) what hands do you defend against steals with?
 

[ QUOTE ]
not true at all. most people peel 4th unless u catch really good.

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Bless their pointy little heads. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]