****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

The damning evidence has been released. Juice Up

Apparently he took steroids in every way imaginable.

Discuss.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

Bonds took steroids? No [censored]?

Anyway, when did this SI thing come out? There's no other news on any other sports site about concrete evidence that Bonds juiced. All I can say is, it's about time.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

Duh.

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[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, when did this SI thing come out? There's no other news on any other sports site about concrete evidence that Bonds juiced. All I can say is, it's about time.

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From reading the article, it looks like these writers have been gathering evidence and plan to release a book, and that an excerpt will be in the next SI.

Once the dust clears, I would love to see a statistician attempt to adjust 1990's numbers for the effects of steroids. I think it's challenging but doable if you can make a correct assumption about rates of usage.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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Bonds took steroids? No [censored]?

Anyway, when did this SI thing come out? There's no other news on any other sports site about concrete evidence that Bonds juiced. All I can say is, it's about time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The story isn't just that he took steriods. It's that he flatly lied to a grand jury.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

MLB is to blame for steroids, not Barry Bonds. ITs nice they have a player to blame for them not drug testing.. lol.

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MLB is to blame for steroids, not Barry Bonds. ITs nice they have a player to blame for them not drug testing.. lol.

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I agree. I think MLB made a deal w/ the player's union after the 1994 strike saying they would look the other way as far as steroid use in order to get the fans back to the game. I always thought it was pretty convenient that McGwire retired at the end of the 1994 labor deal. Didn't he leave something like $30 million on the table and a chance at 600 homeruns? I think Big Mac saw the writing on the wall and hung it up thinking he would never be connected to steroids. He looked extremely agitated and exasperated to be at the Congressional Hearings last year. Basically, MLB allowed this to happen and then hung the players out to dry once Congress and the general public started complaining.

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[ QUOTE ]
Bonds took steroids? No [censored]?

Anyway, when did this SI thing come out? There's no other news on any other sports site about concrete evidence that Bonds juiced. All I can say is, it's about time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The story isn't just that he took steriods. It's that he flatly lied to a grand jury.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the story is that he took steroids, otherwise more than two paragraphs would be spent on his testimony.

Anyway, does the come as a shock to anyone? Of course not. Is it a problem? Of course it is. Should we villify Bonds? Eh, probably not. This isn't really about Bonds, imo, but about the steroid problem in general, and about what happens when you have ultra-competitive people who will do anything to gain an edge. If the problem is as elevated today as it was fifty years ago, who do you think would be using?

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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MLB is to blame for steroids, not Barry Bonds. ITs nice they have a player to blame for them not drug testing.. lol.

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All though MLB is far from perfect, saying Bonds is not to blame is ridiculous. He's way more guilty than MLB.

Just outta curiousity, do you think it's MLB's fault that Bonds lied to a grand jury, as well?

[note: I have not read the article. I'm saying Bonds lied to a grand jury based solely on the comments in this thread.]

Josh

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i hope he goes to jail. that would be great

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

I should have said that a little differently. What I meant was that the news about the extent of his steroid use is not much of a surprise. The effect of this confirmation on his criminal liability for perjury is more of a story to me. If there really is such proof confirming steroid use to such a signficant extent, I bet the government tries to make something of an example of him, much as they did with Lil Kim.

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The thing that gets me about a guy like Bonds is that his repeated, surly denials that he took steroids were an insult to our intelligence. He didn't just deny that he took steroids, he would react angrily whenever it was even suggested to him. Anyone with half a brain could see the freakish changes that his body had undergone, and the only explanation HAD to be steroids. And now we find out that not only was he taking steroids, but he was taking MASSIVE amounts of steroids.

Not only is he a cheat, but he's a liar. I don't ever want to see him in a MLB uniform again. I hope he sees the writing on the wall and retires. I also hope that they take his records out of the record book. That'll hurt him more than anything.

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I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

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Sure, but there were only a handful that were eligible to be both:

A) At the top echelon of the baseball pantheon
B) Accessible to non-legal performance-enhancing methods.

Do people keep forgetting that Bonds is on the verge of passing BABE RUTH for 2nd on the all-time HR list? That is the difference between him and...Alex Sanchez.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

So your real beef is not necessarily that he cheated or that he lied, but the vehemence with which he did so? That seems rather silly.

While I find it all fascinating, I don't really care one way or another. It doesn't really impact my thoughts on any player, as I've pretty much assumed that they all did, fair or unfair. I'd rather the whole mess hadn't occured, but what are you gonna do? It is their bodies, their lives, and their legacies. I buy the argument that after it was obvious that MLB was going to turn their heads that it pretty much forced the players' hands.

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I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but there were only a handful that were eligible to be both:

A) At the top echelon of the baseball pantheon
B) Accessible to non-legal performance-enhancing methods.

Do people keep forgetting that Bonds is on the verge of passing BABE RUTH for 2nd on the all-time HR list? That is the difference between him and...Alex Sanchez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, etc, etc, all took Amphetamines. These are definitely "non-legal performances-enhancing methods," and baseball agrees as they recently started testing for them...

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but there were only a handful that were eligible to be both:

A) At the top echelon of the baseball pantheon
B) Accessible to non-legal performance-enhancing methods.

Do people keep forgetting that Bonds is on the verge of passing BABE RUTH for 2nd on the all-time HR list? That is the difference between him and...Alex Sanchez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, etc, etc, all took Amphetamines. These are definitely "non-legal performances-enhancing methods," and baseball agrees as they recently started testing for them...

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you are condoning it.

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"Anyone with half a brain could see the freakish changes that his body had undergone, and the only explanation HAD to be steroids"


I'm really sad this is turning out to be true, because the argument above sucks, and I hate that people who used it will feel validated

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

I find this news intriguing. Of course, I assumed Bonds had lied about taking steroids and had been taking them for some time.

However, now with the evidence revealed I find my opinion of Bonds has changed. I guess as a fan I continued to subconsciously suspend disbelief and now feel kind of disgusted by the whole thing.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

One of the things I read in the excerpts was that he allegedly said some of the drugs made his eyesight better. Whoa.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but there were only a handful that were eligible to be both:

A) At the top echelon of the baseball pantheon
B) Accessible to non-legal performance-enhancing methods.

Do people keep forgetting that Bonds is on the verge of passing BABE RUTH for 2nd on the all-time HR list? That is the difference between him and...Alex Sanchez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, etc, etc, all took Amphetamines. These are definitely "non-legal performances-enhancing methods," and baseball agrees as they recently started testing for them...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would argue that many today are still taking amphetamines (somebody recently said that upwards of 90% of current players are taking them). Bonds went above and beyond that.

It's like saying Person A shouldn't get a speeding ticket for going 120 in a 55mph zone cuz "lots of people go 65".

Josh

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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"Anyone with half a brain could see the freakish changes that his body had undergone, and the only explanation HAD to be steroids"

I'm really sad this is turning out to be true, because the argument above sucks, and I hate that people who used it will feel validated

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In general yes, but with regard to a 33 year, world class athlete already in exceptional shape? Sure it is not an infallible argument but you don't grow like a weed when you're 33, even if you haven't trained. why the hate?

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

i still [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] barry

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but there were only a handful that were eligible to be both:

A) At the top echelon of the baseball pantheon
B) Accessible to non-legal performance-enhancing methods.

Do people keep forgetting that Bonds is on the verge of passing BABE RUTH for 2nd on the all-time HR list? That is the difference between him and...Alex Sanchez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, etc, etc, all took Amphetamines. These are definitely "non-legal performances-enhancing methods," and baseball agrees as they recently started testing for them...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would argue that many today are still taking amphetamines (somebody recently said that upwards of 90% of current players are taking them). Bonds went above and beyond that.

It's like saying Person A shouldn't get a speeding ticket for going 120 in a 55mph zone cuz "lots of people go 65".

Josh

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To use your anaology, people are saying speeding is a recent phenomenon, villifying the recent drivers, and canonizing everyone that drove before them.

I'm in no way condoning this, but trying to put this into perspective. If steroids were available to this magnitude fifty years ago, we'd have had the same problem with them with some of the most famous names in history.

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i still [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] barry

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Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

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True. And when players have gotten caught cheating / breaking the rules in the past they've gotten punished for it. The more severe the transgression, the more severe the punishment (see Pete Rose). In my mind, Bonds' transgression was extremely severe, and I hope they nail him to the cross for it.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

Barry Bonds and Pete Rose have nothing to do with each other...

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

canis,

he isn't condoning it, he isn't simply saying that if you are going to vilify bonds then you have to vilify the game in general and that is tough to do. he is saying that this is about a bigger problem, not barry bonds. if mays, dimaggio, mantle and others were around today the chances of them using performance enhancing drugs would be very high, cheating in baseball to gain that edge has been around since the game started whether it has been touching up stats in the ledger books to sharpening spikes to raising the seams on the ball to amphetamines (still used today) to steroids to hundreds of other ways the game has been cheated.

is bonds a hero or good person? no. but is this really about him? the answer is also, no. Jack is right about this.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

ty tdarko.

This is a problem with mlb, athletics, society, and our current drug laws.

this is an nfl problem too, but nobody cares.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. And when players have gotten caught cheating / breaking the rules in the past they've gotten punished for it. The more severe the transgression, the more severe the punishment (see Pete Rose). In my mind, Bonds' transgression was extremely severe, and I hope they nail him to the cross for it.

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what rule did bonds break? Previous to the recent agreement, steriods weren't treated any differently than other controlled substances by baseball. Bonds could have been punished for breaking the law, as lamar hoyt was, but he wasn't arrested, and unlike gooden or strawberry, he never tested positive for an illegal substance. And even if he were caught with steroids under the prior regime, the precedent doesn't support much more than a suspension, probably maxed at 60 games and likely far less than that.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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Barry Bonds and Pete Rose have nothing to do with each other...

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I used Pete Rose as an example of someone who was severely punished by MLB for conduct detrimental to the game. I could have used Shoeless Joe Jackson or any number of players who were punished by MLB in the past. It remains to be seen if Bonds will be punished at all by MLB. I doubt he will be, but hopefully get booed unmercifully at every ballpark he plays in will be enough to chase him out of the game.

I agree with other posters that MLB owners share a large amount of the blame for the current situation by turning a blind eye to steroids for so long.

However, the point to my previous post was that I found Bonds' to be particularly galling in that his steroid use was so obvious that it was almost farcical. He had all the tell-tale signs of a heavy steroid user, but everyone was so in love with his homerun-hitting abilities that they gave him the benefit of the doubt, even after it came out that he'd been involved with Balco.

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When the subject of steroids comes up in regards to athletes I try and get all indignant and all that, but the truth is that I don't care. If they want to shoot themsleves up with horse tranqs to hit the ball farther for my amusement, I'm okay with that. I do hate all the lying and secrecy surrounding it though.

In short, I dislike Bonds for lying and being a total [censored] sometimes (see whiny-pants interview with son prominently displayed a year or so ago) but not so much for the steroid use.

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"Anyone with half a brain could see the freakish changes that his body had undergone, and the only explanation HAD to be steroids"


I'm really sad this is turning out to be true, because the argument above sucks, and I hate that people who used it will feel validated

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Ehhh, yeah the argument isn't 100% sound. But come on, Dids. Did you see images of Bonds from 1997, then 1999?

WOW. I mean it literally looks like two different people. Transcending his perverse new muscle mass, the bone structure of his now gargantuan head had changed "overnight".

It IS POSSIBLE to throw on 15 pounds of muscle in 100 days at age 35, WITHOUT steroids, but Bonds' hints of steroid use were myriad, which leads people to assume it HAD to be 'roids.

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If we want to know who did steroids wait 10-15 years and see who is still alive.

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If we want to know who did steroids wait 10-15 years and see who is still alive.

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OMG Kirby Puckett did Roids.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

in a related story, an accountant from Tennessee named Chris Moneymaker who qualified for the World Series of Poker in a $40 satellite, won $2.5 million.

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If steroids were available to this magnitude fifty years ago, we'd have had the same problem with them with some of the most famous names in history.


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cmon Jack. cheaters cheat. a stand-up guy back then would not have used roids, just as stand-up guys now don't.

Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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i still [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] barry

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Re: ****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********
 

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If we want to know who did steroids wait 10-15 years and see who is still alive.

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OMG Kirby Puckett did Roids.

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We don't really know if he did or not (but I highly doubt he did). However, there are plenty of former atheletes who have admitted to using steroids and who are now suffering serious health issues as a result. For instance, Ken Caminiti attributed his health issues to his years of steroid abuse, and then dropped dead a few years ago.

That being said, from now on every time a former star athlete dies at a young age, the question of whether his death was related to steroids will come up. Players like Bonds who have huge success while on steroids have placed every successful athlete from here on in under suspicion. The tragedy is that players who play by the rules, are superbly talented, work out like crazy, and live healthy lifestyles will be painted with the same brush as players like Bonds.

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I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but there were only a handful that were eligible to be both:

A) At the top echelon of the baseball pantheon
B) Accessible to non-legal performance-enhancing methods.

Do people keep forgetting that Bonds is on the verge of passing BABE RUTH for 2nd on the all-time HR list? That is the difference between him and...Alex Sanchez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, etc, etc, all took Amphetamines. These are definitely "non-legal performances-enhancing methods," and baseball agrees as they recently started testing for them...

[/ QUOTE ]

They are now testing for them, but I think when Mantle, Dimaggio, etc... were taking amphetamines, they were somewhat legal. They probably had prescriptions. But, if they were injecting them, then it was illegal during their time. They are "performance enhancing" because they will keep you "going" longer, but it won't necessarily make you stronger. In fact, amphetamines can still be gotten legally today. Kids are prescriped them for ADD.

craig