Stars Microrazzament
 

Razz ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.10 SB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.55 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

6th Street - (8.55 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

River - (10.55 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___raises___raises

Total pot: (18.55 BB)

Summary in white:

<font color="white">
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18.55 | Rake $0.50
Seat 1: showed [4d 7d Ts 8d Js 3h 6s] and won ($18.05) with Lo: 8,7,6,4,3
Seat 2: folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: folded on the 6th Street
Seat 5: showed [2d 6h 9s 5s 9h Th 8h] and lost with Lo: 9,8,6,5,2
Seat 6: folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 8: folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet) </font>

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

I don't like the call on 4th or 5th.

4th, you likely have the 3rd best hand and the 3rd best draw. You're only getting 3:1 on your initial call and I consider it possible that the other T will raise, although it's common also that he won't.

5th, You need to hit a low card and have BOTH of your opponents brick. Your redraw is awful, you're getting pretty terrible pot odds (2.5:1) with the chance again of a raise behind you. You didn't improve but really neither did your opponents. You STILL need to catch a baby and have both of them brick.

If you dropped me into your seat from 6th on I play the same. You have the best hand and the best draw on 6th, and on 7th obviously you have the nuts.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

The 4th street call was the raise no one bothered to put in, so it's a wash.

On 5th the raise irritated me and I called.

On 6th, I had the best hand.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
The 4th street call was the raise no one bothered to put in, so it's a wash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[ QUOTE ]
On 5th the raise irritated me and I called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a good reason to call.

[ QUOTE ]
On 6th, I had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, 6th on is fine.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

I would fold at 5th,your chances of making 8 low by the river is about 14%, and there is no guarantee that it will be enough to win. There are 2 draws to 9 high, so your T is pretty worthless. Also the pot is small.

Plus you will fold some of the winning hands when someone cacthes a low card(but secretly pairs) and you brick next street.

The rest I would play the same.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
Plus you will fold some of the winning hands when someone cacthes a low card(but secretly pairs) and you brick next street.

[/ QUOTE ]Oh, I doubt it.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Plus you will fold some of the winning hands when someone cacthes a low card(but secretly pairs) and you brick next street.

[/ QUOTE ]Oh, I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What, you'll still call?

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
Huh?

[/ QUOTE ]
Rusty, I posted the hand for entertainment value and played it for that. Sometimes when you are winning so often no one will call your A23, it's nice to let them see you do something outrageous. Then I won the dumb thing. I thought it was funny.

But that 5th street raise did irritate me.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rusty, I posted the hand for entertainment value and played it for that. Sometimes when you are winning so often no one will call your A23, it's nice to let them see you do something outrageous.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was entertaining. When I no longer get action, I start bluffing.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

I guess I've never had that happen to me (get hit by the deck so hard that people stop calling)

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
The 4th street call was the raise no one bothered to put in, so it's a wash.

On 5th the raise irritated me and I called.

On 6th, I had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought this thread was going to be about a tournament!?. I want my money back! In spite of this I will comment on the hand. 4th st is really interesting to me because the standard play is to fold here (as Rusty explained) and vs. solid players it will be marginally -EV to call, even getting in for cheap. The fact that you feel it should have been a complete bet on 3rd st which you would have called isn't relevant since you get a 2nd chance to decide what to do. It's like if someone slowplays AA in HE and I have 33, villain bets into a QJ3 flop and I fold b/c had he raised PF I would have folded.

I'm not sure if hero had a note on seat 5 as being horrible, but it's pretty common to find horrible players in razz esp. at 0.50/1 and below. So hero may have made a marginally bad call on 4th, but stuck it out in a hand where she was rewarded handsomely by villain's 4BB nuclear meltdown on the river. Call me results oriented if you like, but just knowing that this possibility exists should encourage you to stick in hands longer in marginal situations to get paid off by the donks.

Now on 5th st, listen to Rusty....

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

Well, your diamonds and straight outs are pretty live so calling 4th isn't too bad... oh, wrong game. Playing stud/8 makes razz more confusing, I'm always noting suits and stuff that don't matter.

It's true, against the worst opponents I think you can call 4th. I played with someone the other day that I wanted to have position on SO BADLY but it was impossible to move, probably because of the 4 deep waiting list, probably because this guy was at the table. Any 2 cards under 8, and he was in the pot. This makes folding 4th when you catch a mild brick impossible, because a lot of the time you still have the best hand. I have a note on him where he called a completion on 3rd with a brick in the hole (K I think) and then called 4th 3-way when he paired a down card. He bluffed 5th 6th and 7th - I called him down with something really ridiculous like a T and won.

He made 50bb while I was sitting there. I made about 25 so I can't complain. That guy owes me some freakin sklansky bucks though. Several times I'd have a nice made low on 5th and he'd runner-runner me for a better one.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

Who was it, Kenny Tran?

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

I don't know but I suspect he'll be showing up in a few days to make a stats check post.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who was it, Kenny Tran?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like Rusty got "Fuched" if he was on stars. There's a couple players like this, I think their VPIP is like 47% - but they aren't donks, they are actually big winners. It's like playing Sammy Farha Razz.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]

On 5th the raise irritated me and I called.


[/ QUOTE ]

The 5th street raise may have irritated you but was a correct move. Partly to ensure you fold (which you didn't) and partly he must have thought the other player had a bad hole card due to limping in.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rusty, I posted the hand for entertainment value and played it for that. Sometimes when you are winning so often no one will call your A23, it's nice to let them see you do something outrageous.
[ QUOTE ]
It was entertaining. When I no longer get action, I start bluffing.
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I've never had that happen to me (get hit by the deck so hard that people stop calling)

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit that's what I said, but it's not what I meant.

I don't think I do this in any other poker game; but sometimes when I'm playing razz, I start playing ABC. I like the way SGspecial put it in another thread – playing razz like tic tac toe. It doesn't take people long to realize that when I bet or raise, I have the best hand. Then I have to change gears by bluffing other than where it's perfectly obvious.

You know, maybe one has to play more ABC in razz than in other poker games. Even if that's true, we don't want to become predictable.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

Haha, Prax, yeah it was Fuchs. I didn't know he was always like that. I guess that explains the line. God, I tried so hard to switch seats but it was impossible.

Ah. Well ABC razz to me includes both betting when it appears that I'm behind but I don't believe that I am, and betting when I know I'm behind but it might appear that I'm not. It doesn't include TOO much actual bluffing although I will multi-barrel bluff if my opponents board is all bricks no matter if I have 2 pair.

I think a real problem with razz is that there is generally not a situation where a crap hand can go into being way ahead on 4th. In stud, your little pair can become a monster in one card and you can collect big when you make trips, or you can play some hands that can develop big draws by 5th, etc, etc. In razz a 3 card low on 4th just doesn't develop into a winning hand all that often vs a 4 card low. You don't have the implied odds that you do in other games.

Although then this hand goes ahead and proves that sometimes you do.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

And I just checked, and I'm only up on him like $10. The funny thing is, I won 11 hands against him and lost 39 (I assume the lost hands includes hands I folded). I *might* have had a better record if I called him more. It was about 20 hands into the session before I discovered the depths of his depravity. This was actually only over about 85 hands so I guess $10 (5bb) from one player is not so bad.

It's hard to imagine that he'd be up a lot. It isn't just his hand selection that's a problem, he actually plays quite badly from what I saw. His one saving grace is probably that people play their worst razz against him. I treated him like I would any LAG... call down light, value bet mercilessly, fold if it appears I'm too far behind, DESPITE the fact that he may have crap. His 5th st aggression is through the roof. That's kind of interesting.

I also have trouble figuring out how Farha makes money.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I just checked, and I'm only up on him like $10. The funny thing is, I won 11 hands against him and lost 39 (I assume the lost hands includes hands I folded). I *might* have had a better record if I called him more. It was about 20 hands into the session before I discovered the depths of his depravity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Playing by the book won't help you beat guys like this because most books on razz don't or won't address how to play vs. maniacs. Giving them too much credit for having a hand can be just as dangerous as giving "solid" players too little credit.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

I think I did OK against him once I figured out that he not only played almost any hand, but would not release even his worst ones. There's a big difference between a loose player who folds liberally on 5th if it looks like he's in bad shape and one who won't.

One thing I loooooove about pokerstars in the non-shuffling of hole cards. Otherwise it would have taken me twice as long to figure him out, because I tend to give someone who, at showdown, has something like T8A44J4 credit for having started with A48 not A4T. To know for sure that it was A4T and he called 4th anyway when he paired the 4... that is powerful stuff.

I haven't seen him much recently, but there is/was a well known razz player on FTP between .5/1 and 2/4 who just gives it away. I think he's lost a few thousand at 1/2, running at like -12bb/100 It took me several hundred hands of playing against him to realize why I was barely breaking even against him.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to imagine that he'd be up a lot. It isn't just his hand selection that's a problem, he actually plays quite badly from what I saw. His one saving grace is probably that people play their worst razz against him. I treated him like I would any LAG... call down light, value bet mercilessly, fold if it appears I'm too far behind, DESPITE the fact that he may have crap. His 5th st aggression is through the roof. That's kind of interesting.

I also have trouble figuring out how Farha makes money.

[/ QUOTE ]OMIGOSH! I was kidding, was it the real Fuchs?(edit - shoulda read ahead! It was!) Is that his name in FT, too? It's just a word I started using because...well...too obvious...

He's a nice guy - I think he's a guy - we started out playing together. I think he only does this at .50/1 and 1/2. I know he plays a higher now, as well, and doesn't play Farha up there. He started playing the early part of the $1 trny that way and he'd pretty consistently get an early big stack. I think he decided - if it works on them there - it'll work at the tables, and it does.

You wouldn't be much of a mark for him, you're too good. I think he has some money and can stand, and really enjoys, the big swings.

I love poker. It's so interesting to me that so many individual styles are successful. Esp in Razz where people think there's no play. I really need to play enough hands to just find out what my own game is.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
The 5th street raise may have irritated you but was a correct move.

[/ QUOTE ]No, I don't think so. Raising with that board when you are at most, one pip ahead of your closest competition, is not "correct."

5th Street - (2.55 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

Seat 5 has a four-card 9, at best. Seat 3 is also representing a four-card 9. Seat 5 raises to get the four-card ten to fold. But all he did was make sure I called because, well, as much as I hate pots odds, I know Seat 3 is going to call, so that money is already in there, and I'm invested enough, and have good enough cards, that I am not leaving without seeing one more street.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

It was on Pokerstars, and yeah, it was Fuchs and then a number like Fuchs3 or something.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that you feel it should have been a complete bet on 3rd st which you would have called isn't relevant since you get a 2nd chance to decide what to do. It's like if someone slowplays AA in HE and I have 33, villain bets into a QJ3 flop and I fold b/c had he raised PF I would have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]I think about it this way: is this a hand I would have called a raise with? If, yes, then I am calling a bet on 4th unless I am tragically behind. Why am I calling? Because my investment is the same. Even in hands I take seriously, I do this.

It's like the bluff-limp. Like limping a hand in early position you'd only steal with, then everyone folds and you are HU with the BU, anyway, and one bet gets him to fold if you catch good. It's 8 chances to 5, I will. Even if he does, he is the BI, he likely has two bad cards, it looks like I have 4. But if there's a bunch of action, I can fold.

If I get to see 5th with a likely hand, what difference does it make if I put two bets in on 3rd or one in on 3rd and one on 4th? Now, admittedly, in this case things got a little outrageous, but that was ok, I was ready to bail on 6th with my mission accomplished.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The 5th street raise may have irritated you but was a correct move.

[/ QUOTE ]No, I don't think so. Raising with that board when you are at most, one pip ahead of your closest competition, is not "correct."

5th Street - (2.55 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

Seat 5 has a four-card 9, at best. Seat 3 is also representing a four-card 9. Seat 5 raises to get the four-card ten to fold. But all he did was make sure I called because, well, as much as I hate pots odds, I know Seat 3 is going to call, so that money is already in there, and I'm invested enough, and have good enough cards, that I am not leaving without seeing one more street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you were playing for fun in this hand, but if not it wasn't a call.

With your call seat 3 should raise and seat 5 re-raise to force you out. They should keep jamming and you are not getting the odds to call here.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I've never had that happen to me (get hit by the deck so hard that people stop calling)

[/ QUOTE ]

That never happens to me either, but I think it has more to do with my playing style and the fact that most players have a hard time folding eve 8-7 low draws online.

Re: Stars Microrazzament
 

[ QUOTE ]
With your call seat 3 should raise and seat 5 re-raise to force you out. They should keep jamming and you are not getting the odds to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]You are absolutely right, they should have done exactly that. But they didn't. (Hey, I almost reraised myself!) Yes, I was messing about. But it wasn't that far off a reasonable gamble at these stakes with these opponents. I was ready to bail on the next street. I just lucked out.