What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

There are a lot of disagreeeonment on the top 10 starting hands you can have in holdem once it gets past the 4th one. For instance most sites say AA, KK, QQ, AK as the best 4 starting hands. Then some people who write articles say JJ is the 5th whereas another site has AQ as the 5th best starting hand. Then i read some ridiculous article that has KQ as the 6th and then AJ as 7th and AK offsuit as the 8th.

Personally I think Phil Hellmuths top ten starting hands
AA, KK, QQ, AKs, JJ, 1010, 99, 88, AQs and 77 is the best .

What are the top 10 starting hands? I know some people disagree with one another but having KQ and AJ both suited doesn't seem to be a top 10 hand to me. Also, what are your top 10 starting hands in Cash game versus MTT/sngs?

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

According to www.pokerroom.com the top ten starting hands in "limit" hold em is :

AA,kk,QQ,AKs,JJ,AQs,AK,1010,AQ,99

The top 10 starting hands should be the top ten in any format .

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

If all ten players on a table go all-in preflop the following hands is the 10 best hands to have in the following order - the following is thus the best hands in a multiway situation:

AA KK QQ AKs JJ AQs KQs AJs TT AKo

Since all players go all-in, suited hands get high values because of the chance to hit a flush.

PS AA wins 309 times out of 1000 and AKo wins 163 times out of 1000 while KQs actually wins 177 times out of 1000.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

When I did simulations a while back I saw some slight differences in rankings when you started reducing the number of players. I'd have to go back and look again to remember what they are and possibly they did not affect the highest 10.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

I double checked and noticed that kqs ranks above a-q0 and below pocket 10's .

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

what would be the top 10 starting hands in cash game?

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Why would you expect the top 10 hands to be different in a cash game?

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

WEll because hands like AJs and KQs are considered trouble hands. Someone said that in a cash game it isn't that much of a trouble hand because you can let it go if you dont hit and if u do hit, you have a very good kicker.

In a tournament, you will go all the way and lose with it because your opponent will have a bigger kicker. NOt sure if i am phrasing it right.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

People overemphasize the difference between cash and tournaments. In my experience the difference exists mostly at the times when your stack gets low enough that standard opening or completion bets represent a significant portion of your stack. (Or, if your opponent meets this criteria) This can happen in NL too if you let it, or want it to, but when you bust out, probably you can rebuy.

Anyway, in general these hands are just as much trouble in cash games as they are in tournaments, and if you can release it in a cash game, you can release it in a tournament.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Would you all prefer AQs over AKo?

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Now we get into the real nitty gritty, which a table of top 10 hands is no good for.

What's the situation? What's my position? Who's already acted? How many people can I expect to be in the pot? Any short stacks still to act?

Heads up, I'll take AK over AQs. Multiway I like AQs because it's only a little weaker in pair value but I'll have better drawing odds, or a better hand, multiway.

It's nice to speculate about good hands but there are situations where AQs or AK goes in the muck and there are situations where I'll glady raise QTo. There's good hands and then there's good (and bad) situations.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

In general, people greatly over-value suited cards. Suited cards only outperform their unsuited cousins 3-4% of the time.

With all the money in the pot:

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
8-7 suited wins 23% of the time

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
8-7 unsuited wins 19% of th time

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] vs. A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
suited A wins 32% of the time

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] vs. A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
unsuited A wins 29% of the time

Therefore, the main strength of a hand comes from the rank of the cards, not the suitedness.

*extracted from Phil Gordon's Little Green Book

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Well the difference between 19% and 23% wins is actually 4 units of % better and thus 87s will win 21% more than 87o. So 87s is better than 87o - but the difference is more apperant in multiway hands.

Phil Gordon is correct in 2 ways:
-Many players will play any 2 cards - as long as they are of the same suit. These players chase flush draws - which is a bad idea.
- When less players are involved in a hand - high cards become more important and straight and flush draws decrease in value - one often don't get the odds to draw to them playing HU efter the flop.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well the difference between 19% and 23% wins is actually 4 units of % better and thus 87s will win 21% more than 87o. So 87s is better than 87o - but the difference is more apperant in multiway hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

87s only has a 2.5% edge versus 87o heads up. Please explain where you get 21%?

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well the difference between 19% and 23% wins is actually 4 units of % better and thus 87s will win 21% more than 87o. So 87s is better than 87o - but the difference is more apperant in multiway hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

87s only has a 2.5% edge versus 87o heads up. Please explain where you get 21%?

[/ QUOTE ]

52.5%-47.5% = 5% edge, not 2.5%.

23%/19% = 1.21, thus, 21% better. The point is that the approximately 5% of the time suited cards make a flush increases the percentage proportionally more at lower original equities, which occurs in multiway pots. Increasing your equity from 4% to 8% doubles your equity, whereas increasing high card value will have less of an effect. Also, it is more likely that the flush you make will be necessary to win.

For instance, AKs wins 21.9% of the time against eight random hands, whereas AKo will win 18.2% of the time. This is a 3.7% flush bonus. Against one random hand, AKs wins 67.0% of the time, whereas AKo wins 65.3% of the time. So not only does suitedness give a higher raw percentage advantage multiway (due to the times a AK unimproved beats a hand, or the TPTK was sufficient despite a flush) it also has a relatively bigger advantage.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

I'm sorry, let me state that a little more clearly.

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
52.5% vs. 47.5%

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
50% vs. 50%

52.5%-50%=2.5%
50%-47.5%=2.5%

Therefore, suited cards compared to (not versus) their unsuited cousins only have a 2.5% edge.

So the "maximum advantage" of plaing suited cards as opposed to the exact same rank cards unsuited is only 3%-4%. If any of that suit are out in other hands its even less.

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
46.2% vs. 53.8%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
42.8% vs. 57.2%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
45.9% vs. 54.2%

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

3% is actually a pretty big edge in the long run.

hot and cold it is much better having suits than w/o

playability wise it is even better to have suits because they add so much equity

look at the actual equity differences in the post above

the equity gap is 7.6% in AKs v QQ and 14.4% with AKo v QQ

these are fairly large differences

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, let me state that a little more clearly.

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
52.5% vs. 47.5%

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
50% vs. 50%

52.5%-50%=2.5%
50%-47.5%=2.5%

Therefore, suited cards compared to (not versus) their unsuited cousins only have a 2.5% edge.

So the "maximum advantage" of plaing suited cards as opposed to the exact same rank cards unsuited is only 3%-4%. If any of that suit are out in other hands its even less.

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
46.2% vs. 53.8%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
42.8% vs. 57.2%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
45.9% vs. 54.2%

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the question is the difference between suited and unsuited hands. Having 87s vs. a random hand provides about (2.5)*2 = 5% additional equity vs having 87o vs. a random hand. The difference is doubled because when you gain, your opponent loses proportionately, so the effect of taking a dollar from your opponent means a net gain of 2 dollars (If you each start with $50, you would have $51 and he $49). The reason he cited 20~% was that the 5% difference in equity represents about 1/4 of the original equity of the hand.

A concrete example:
You have 87o vs AA, all in for a $100 pot. You have 20% equity (I'm not sure what the real number is, the point still holds), which means that you own $20 and he owns $80 of the $100 in the pot: a $60 difference.
Now you have 87s vs. AA, all in for a $100 pot. You have 22.5% equity (estimate, again) which means that you own $22.5 and he owns $77.5: a $55 difference. Your suited cards netted you $5, a 20% gain compared to your original equity.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Also, the advantage of "suitedness" is somewhat less quantifiable when you consider the playability of suited cards. 2-card flushes are almost always going to be the best hand, with considerable implied odds from strong non-nut hands. So that 5% difference in pot equity conceals the implied profit: If I had to go heads up against a range like AA-JJ, I would pay twice or three times as much preflop with 87s than I would with 87o, significantly more than the 5% difference when you talk about face-up all in equity.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the advantage of "suitedness" is somewhat less quantifiable when you consider the playability of suited cards. 2-card flushes are almost always going to be the best hand, with considerable implied odds from strong non-nut hands. So that 5% difference in pot equity conceals the implied profit: If I had to go heads up against a range like AA-JJ, I would pay twice or three times as much preflop with 87s than I would with 87o, significantly more than the 5% difference when you talk about face-up all in equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, PLEASE, PLLLLLEASE let me know where you play!! I want in that game in a BAD WAY!!

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, the advantage of "suitedness" is somewhat less quantifiable when you consider the playability of suited cards. 2-card flushes are almost always going to be the best hand, with considerable implied odds from strong non-nut hands. So that 5% difference in pot equity conceals the implied profit: If I had to go heads up against a range like AA-JJ, I would pay twice or three times as much preflop with 87s than I would with 87o, significantly more than the 5% difference when you talk about face-up all in equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, PLEASE, PLLLLLEASE let me know where you play!! I want in that game in a BAD WAY!!

[/ QUOTE ]

So you just play by absolute showdown equity? You don't think implied odds are an important part of NL (or LHE, for that matter)?

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, the advantage of "suitedness" is somewhat less quantifiable when you consider the playability of suited cards. 2-card flushes are almost always going to be the best hand, with considerable implied odds from strong non-nut hands. So that 5% difference in pot equity conceals the implied profit: If I had to go heads up against a range like AA-JJ, I would pay twice or three times as much preflop with 87s than I would with 87o, significantly more than the 5% difference when you talk about face-up all in equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, PLEASE, PLLLLLEASE let me know where you play!! I want in that game in a BAD WAY!!

[/ QUOTE ]

So you just play by absolute showdown equity? You don't think implied odds are an important part of NL (or LHE, for that matter)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutly consider implied odds. But implied odds post flop are a completely different story than implied odds preflop. Therefore, I don't over value suited cards preflop. I would go out of my way to play with someone who over values the implied odds of playing 2 suited cards preflop! So will you please invite me to your game? I'm asking nicely!

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, the advantage of "suitedness" is somewhat less quantifiable when you consider the playability of suited cards. 2-card flushes are almost always going to be the best hand, with considerable implied odds from strong non-nut hands. So that 5% difference in pot equity conceals the implied profit: If I had to go heads up against a range like AA-JJ, I would pay twice or three times as much preflop with 87s than I would with 87o, significantly more than the 5% difference when you talk about face-up all in equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, PLEASE, PLLLLLEASE let me know where you play!! I want in that game in a BAD WAY!!

[/ QUOTE ]

So you just play by absolute showdown equity? You don't think implied odds are an important part of NL (or LHE, for that matter)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutly consider implied odds. But implied odds post flop are a completely different story than implied odds preflop. Therefore, I don't over value suited cards preflop. I would go out of my way to play with someone who over values the implied odds of playing 2 suited cards preflop! So will you please invite me to your game? I'm asking nicely!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't play suited connectors more often than unsuited connectors you won't be able to afford the gas needed to drive to his game.

I didn't see where he stated that he overvalued suited cards, just that he plays them more often.

Jimbo

PS: You can come to my game anytime. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

And yet another prfound remark:

'I didn't see where he stated that he overvalued suited cards, just that he plays them more often.'

Do you not play the hands that you value? And do you not play the hands that you place greater value on more often?

And never did I say that I dont play suited connectors more ofthen thatn unsuited connectors. That is one very specific example of suited vs. unsuited cards. All I'm saying is that most people put to much value on suitedness.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And never did I say that I dont play suited connectors more ofthen thatn unsuited connectors. That is one very specific example of suited vs. unsuited cards. All I'm saying is that most people put to much value on suitedness.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually all you did was to imply you could beat another posters game having no idea the limit, the oponnents or how the game played. So basically you wasted electrons.

Jimbo

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

I was being sarcastic. I've attached a link with a definition for you.

Sarcasim

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of disagreeeonment on the top 10 starting hands you can have in holdem once it gets past the 4th one. For instance most sites say AA, KK, QQ, AK as the best 4 starting hands. Then some people who write articles say JJ is the 5th whereas another site has AQ as the 5th best starting hand. Then i read some ridiculous article that has KQ as the 6th and then AJ as 7th and AK offsuit as the 8th.

Personally I think Phil Hellmuths top ten starting hands
AA, KK, QQ, AKs, JJ, 1010, 99, 88, AQs and 77 is the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that it depends on the number of players.
in 6 handed table, the correct rank will be
AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AKs,TT,AQs,KQs,AJs,AKo

KQs excpect to win more times then AJs in the long run against multiple opponents.
Ofcourse AJs dominates KQs when both in play, but against random hands KQs is a better hand.

AJs is becoming a better hand then KQs in 5 handed game and less, which makes your hunch about AJs in shape since must of the time youll play against less then 5 opponents.
That why raising with AJs makes a good play. it's reducing the num of the opponents hence gain your equity.

in hu, the whole expectation norms are different. even 22 are slightly better then AKs.

as you decrease players, the ranking of pocket pairs & the value of the high card raises up.
so, the rank is heavily depends on the number of the opponents.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was being sarcastic. I've attached a link with a definition for you.

Sarcasim

[/ QUOTE ]

So now you are trying to say this quote of yours below was only sarcasm?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, the advantage of "suitedness" is somewhat less quantifiable when you consider the playability of suited cards. 2-card flushes are almost always going to be the best hand, with considerable implied odds from strong non-nut hands. So that 5% difference in pot equity conceals the implied profit: If I had to go heads up against a range like AA-JJ, I would pay twice or three times as much preflop with 87s than I would with 87o, significantly more than the 5% difference when you talk about face-up all in equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, PLEASE, PLLLLLEASE let me know where you play!! I want in that game in a BAD WAY!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggest you never go into the sales profession, I am not buying your explanation and doubt many others here will buy it either. Your post miserably fails the irony test provided in your link.


Jimbo

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

You will never understand how hurt I am that you don't buy what I said or beleive it. I am quite sad now!

On a serious, non sarcastic note, please get a life JIMBO!

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

AQs beating AKo. Not according to me PokerOffice.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
AQs beating AKo. Not according to me PokerOffice.

[/ QUOTE ]

equity wise, against a random hand, AQs > AKo.
the 3-4% flush "add on" makes the AQs more profitable then AKo (vs. random hand).
ofcourse, when collide, AKo > AQs.

Yet,
If you put some sense into your opponent, assuming he will play with a rational hand, AKo > AQs always.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Rusty, I think there might be an argument for a difference at some M in a cash game. I think the kinds of opponents have a bearing on this also. At an M of 30 or so and below, I'm certain I agree with you fully. Above that it gets a little debatable for me.

I realize the OP is more general and your answer is for the purposes of this forum. However, I like the question about the differences in a cash game. I do like your answer but I think I lean more towards the people you describe than where you are on this subject.

I would support the idea that as the stacks get deeper and deeper and/or as the opponents get tighter and better the traditional high hands lose ev. Is it enough to change the rankings? I'm not sure I could argue that. However those conditions bring the more speculative hands way up for me.

I'm thninking in terms of ending stack values after a night of hard work and good play. Most of these nights are many hours against maybe only 15 to 20 opponents. That is much more time facing individual players and many fewer players than one is exposed to in a tourny. The style reads and knowledge of each opponent about the others grows much deeper here than in a tourny.

Sure I want aces, every hand if I can get them. However 1 pair hands that don't improve (most of the time) can be tricky to play, expecially with a thoughtful and strong opponent is calling or playing back. It seems I make most of my monster pots live against players that just can't let go of the AA or KK (or worse, other top pairs) post flop. I like the hands but I have some level of contempt for them also.

One of my thoughts is in tourny's you rarely have an M greater than 40 or so. However in live it's very common. A table with 5 to 8 players with an M around 100 or over isn't uncommon.

Really, I'm not arguing with your persepctive here. I guess I'd juse enjoy reading your theoretic musing a little in support or not.

Dave

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Awesome graph...great illustration of hand rankings. Personnaly I still use Sklansky & Malmuth's Groups. Their top 10 hands are (in order) AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, 10-10, AQs, AJs, KQs, AKos

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Would anyone seriously play KQs or AJs ahead of AKo in virtually any situation?

Equity against random hands is almost meaningless. The ability to select the hands one plays makes this so. AQs gains a lot equity from being a better hand to have than AKo against random unplayable hands like J5 and 84, as in that case they are functionally the same in having overcards but AQs has the suited advantage. Yet since hand selection is biased towards big cards, AKo is clearly better.

This is also why 88 and 99 aren't as great as their equity would suggest. 99 has 72% equity against random hands - but this occurs from 76% equity against all non-Broadway hands but 49% equity against Broadway hands.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

I would take AKo waaaay over AJs or AQs.
And actually I would take AKs over pocket deuces.
PokerStove shows AKs winning over deuces 50%-49% over 1.7 million hands.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

I believe the reason they have AQs, AJs, and even KQs before AKos is because, yes you have the abilty to flop the top pairs and the nut straight with AKos, but over time you loose (when seen to the river) with the flush possibilities. That said I personnaly would like AKos against any of those hands (pre-flop). [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would you all prefer AQs over AKo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all-in and heads up preflop.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.123% 67.90% 02.22% 41856048 1369806.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 29.877% 27.65% 02.22% 17047284 1369806.00 { AQs }

But 9-handed all-in preflop vs random hands, AQs is a tiny bit better.

equity win tie pots won pots tie
Hand 0: 13.345% 12.64% 00.71% 171818 9638.15 { AKo }
Hand 1: 13.767% 13.06% 00.70% 177629 9562.90 { AQs }
Hand 2: 09.070% 08.17% 00.90% 111098 12233.23 { random }
Hand 3: 09.045% 08.13% 00.91% 110563 12426.73 { random }
Hand 4: 09.101% 08.18% 00.92% 111269 12480.32 { random }
Hand 5: 09.079% 08.16% 00.92% 110947 12503.65 { random }
Hand 6: 09.143% 08.23% 00.91% 111899 12427.40 { random }
Hand 7: 09.140% 08.22% 00.93% 111705 12581.82 { random }
Hand 8: 09.148% 08.23% 00.92% 111938 12457.82 { random }
Hand 9: 09.160% 08.24% 00.93% 111966 12582.65 { random }