Small 4-Bets
 

I've been away for a while and really want to know...

What is up with these TAGs making tiny 4-bets in 2/4 NL??

So many players are raising my $46, $48, and $50 3-bets to anywhere between $100 and $120. Is there some kind of strategy behind this (maybe leaving room to fold to a push?) or is it just a trend? All I know is that they're getting owned pretty hard.

I'm genuinely confused.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

You can blame CTS for this. Oh and please tell me how you're owning them.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

To be clear, how big are you saying the 4-bet should be?

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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To be clear, how big are you saying the 4-bet should be?

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Put a man to a decision for all his chips!

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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To be clear, how big are you saying the 4-bet should be?

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Put a man to a decision for all his chips!

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Lol. It depends on style. Some people just 4-bet shove. Some people 4-bet small (like 2-2.5 times the 3-bet), some people 4-bet pot sized.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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To be clear, how big are you saying the 4-bet should be?

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Put a man to a decision for all his chips!

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Lol. It depends on style. Some people just 4-bet shove. Some people 4-bet small (like 2-2.5 times the 3-bet), some people 4-bet pot sized.

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This is the only one I can't see any merit to.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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To be clear, how big are you saying the 4-bet should be?

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Put a man to a decision for all his chips!

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Lol. It depends on style. Some people just 4-bet shove. Some people 4-bet small (like 2-2.5 times the 3-bet), some people 4-bet pot sized.

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This is the only one I can't see any merit to.

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stack sizes don't matter at all eh?

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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You can blame CTS for this. Oh and please tell me how you're owning them.

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Call and hit obv.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

more common is making it ~3x the 3bet imo ($150-$160). making it 60 or 70 on top is pretty terrible unless villain is too stupid to call.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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To be clear, how big are you saying the 4-bet should be?

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Put a man to a decision for all his chips!

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Lol. It depends on style. Some people just 4-bet shove. Some people 4-bet small (like 2-2.5 times the 3-bet), some people 4-bet pot sized.

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This is the only one I can't see any merit to.

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stack sizes don't matter at all eh?

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Obviously my statement was intended to be a firm law that applies to any possible situation.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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To be clear, how big are you saying the 4-bet should be?

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Put a man to a decision for all his chips!

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I agree with this when you're playing with 100BB stacks. It only changed to small 4-bets within the last few months. Before that it was always either 4-bet big and commit or just pooosh. That's how it should be IMO. 4-betting 2x or 2.5x is horrible and all it does is give your opponent a free pass to call with odds. After all, his 3-betting range is a lot tighter than his raising range.

In a vacuum, the only hands that are correct to 4-bet small with are AA, KK and maybe QQ. For obvious reasons, no one is only 4-betting with that range, so the play is sub-optimal overall.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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Oh and please tell me how you're owning them.

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I'll explain the correct counter-strategy as soon as someone provides the reasoning for this latest trend. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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more common is making it ~3x the 3bet imo ($150-$160). making it 60 or 70 on top is pretty terrible unless villain is too stupid to call.

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Making it 150-160 is pretty terrible too I think. You're committing yourself to call a shove anyways, and if for some reason your opponent just calls you can run into some very awkward flops. Shove ftw.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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In a vacuum, the only hands that are correct to 4-bet small with are AA, KK and maybe QQ. For obvious reasons, no one is only 4-betting with that range, so the play is sub-optimal overall.

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You`re close to the solution...

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

Hey matt! Long time, no see.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

So you three bet to 50 w/99 and get four bet to 120. You're calling with odds? What about KQs?

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

this thread is tilting me.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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So you three bet to 50 w/99 and get four bet to 120. You're calling with odds? What about KQs?

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I think the better question is:

So you're four betting small with AK? What do you do when your opponent calls and you whiff the flop?

As far as what I do with 99 or KQs...it all depends on who the 4-betting opponent is.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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So you're four betting small with AK? What do you do when your opponent calls and you whiff the flop?

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I play poker.

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As far as what I do with 99 or KQs...it all depends on who the 4-betting opponent is.

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As does anybody's 4-betting range.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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So you're four betting small with AK? What do you do when your opponent calls and you whiff the flop?

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I play poker.

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With 100BB stacks, what kind of poker do you play?

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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So you're four betting small with AK? What do you do when your opponent calls and you whiff the flop?

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I play poker.

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With 100BB stacks, what kind of poker do you play?

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But the other guy is in the same boat, so I'll just assume we have an edge (I realize this might not be the case, but I can't assume that villain is a better player than us or everything would change from the start).

I should also add that it's currently uncommon for these bets to get called, so usually we're put to a call/fold decision preflop.

I kind of feel like you're gearing up towards a call/shove non-AK flop strategy for villain?

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

lolol A+ thread

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

The fact that there is confusion about defense to small 4 bets. Supports small 4 bets.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

small 4 bets allow you to bluff more and have a wide range doing them. the opponent gets no drawing odds anyway, so this style might be a little more flexible than making it 150 or sth everytime.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

OP, you don't understand the strategy behind smaller 4bets yet you have figured out how to "own" the people playing this style...sounds like you might just be clicking buttons on your computer.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

LOL at "owning" small 4bettors. in general, small 4bets are superior to pot 4bets. it's math.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

18k posts? Were they all in the magazine forum or something?

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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18k posts? Were they all in the magazine forum or something?

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Even worse, POG.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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18k posts? Were they all in the magazine forum or something?

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Even worse, POG.

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Whats POG?

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

jesus so many reg msnl posters are fkin terrible (no offence)

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

With 100bb stacks I don't understand why you would make a pot sized four bet. You can't fold to a shove so it is directly worse to a shove because you give him an additional option to call if that is advantageous for some reason.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

You can read some analysis of big vs small 4bets and 4bets in general at my blog

DISCLAIMER : It is still unedited. The blog is just starting and it completely sucks for now. No layaout, no look, no feel, no anything. Still there is some math for interested people [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

i could make a defense for any 4bet size if you know what you're doing with it

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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i could make a defense for any 4bet size if you know what you're doing with it

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I think it is only true for 4bet sizes which allow you to fold profitably if you know for 100% that he is only pushing AA over it so "any" is a big of overstatement.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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You can blame CTS for this. Oh and please tell me how you're owning them.

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min 5 bet LDO

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

It allows you to adjust when you're getting 3 bet often by an opponent. Ex. You raise c/o to 14 button 3 bets you to 48. With a hand like 57s I'm way more likely to 4 bet to 138 than I am to call. People do not call you here. They either fold or shove. You obviously have to pick your spots, but it helps you mix up your game if you 4bet small with a wider range of hands.

C

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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Ex. You raise c/o to 14 button 3 bets you to 48. With a hand like 57s I'm way more likely to 4 bet to 138 than I am to call. People do not call you here. They either fold or shove.

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138 is a lot different than 100-120 if you're looking for either value or FE from your 4-bet. I'd still prefer a poooosh b/c even at 138, you're approaching a pot-sized raise and are dangerously close to committing yourself anyway.

What still puzzles me though is how raising from 48 -> 100/120 could ever be the correct play. You're basically BEGGING to get called. Using the argument "I 4-bet small to allow myself to correctly fold to a push" is stupid with a big range of hands. If you're not raising enough to generate proper FE with your bluffs, you shouldn't be 4-betting/folding to a 5-bet with those hands in the first place.

I mean...I could be wrong, but you have to think about it this way: Top players have been making a solid 6-8 PTBB/100 (live pros even more) for a long time at MSNL without employing this "new strategy." It's hard to believe that CTS, et al came along and reinvented the wheel this year because all the past NL pros were too stupid to use this monster technique over the last 30 years.

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

Uhh... 3-betting light is relatively new also. So you're saying that adds nothing valuable to NL strategy either because they didn't do that earlier?

Re: Small 4-Bets
 

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Ex. You raise c/o to 14 button 3 bets you to 48. With a hand like 57s I'm way more likely to 4 bet to 138 than I am to call. People do not call you here. They either fold or shove.

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138 is a lot different than 100-120 if you're looking for either value or FE from your 4-bet. I'd still prefer a poooosh b/c even at 138, you're approaching a pot-sized raise and are dangerously close to committing yourself anyway.

What still puzzles me though is how raising from 48 -> 100/120 could ever be the correct play. You're basically BEGGING to get called. Using the argument "I 4-bet small to allow myself to correctly fold to a push" is stupid with a big range of hands. If you're not raising enough to generate proper FE with your bluffs, you shouldn't be 4-betting/folding to a 5-bet with those hands in the first place.

I mean...I could be wrong, but you have to think about it this way: Top players have been making a solid 6-8 PTBB/100 (live pros even more) for a long time at MSNL without employing this "new strategy." It's hard to believe that CTS, et al came along and reinvented the wheel this year because all the past NL pros were too stupid to use this monster technique over the last 30 years.

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4betting small DOES have fold equity. Are you telling me if you're villain and you 3bet a $14 raise to $48 with a suited connector, small pair, or some other weakish hand you're calling $70 more? If so, obviously you're terrible and 4betting small with a wide range against you would be terrible. However, most tags do not just call there, although I have seen it happen with some tags. The overwhelming majority of the time they either fold or shove. The pros to 4betting small is that it's a cheap bluff, and I can also induce people to stack off with weaker hands than they would to a bigger sized 4bet (as in pot sized or a shove). I would be much more inclined to shove a hand like AQ/AJ if somebody 4bet me to $120 at $400nl rather than $160, because in the former case they left themselves room to possibly fold to a shove.

CTS didn't really invent small 4betting, although he is definitely one of if not the most notable player who employs this increasingly common strategy. To suggest that you're "owning" these small 4bettors is hilarious though. What, you picked up a few big pairs and shoved and they folded? If your 3betting range is wider than AA-QQ/AK you'll find yourself in some very difficult spots when faced with light 4bets when you have hands not at the top of your range. If you 3bet tons, then you're going to be doing it with a lot of marginal and weak hands, and going to have to get into a mindgame with another good player trying to counteract his light 4betting. Good luck with that!