Razz - playing a 9
 

Villain is a good regular.

Did I mess this up anywhere?

Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0,50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (3.33 SB)

Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls

5th Street - (4.67 BB)

Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (6.67 BB)

Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (8.67 BB)

Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

Total pot: (10.67 BB - $64)

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

I would limp behind or fold on 3rd.

I would not raise on 4th.

Playing aggro when you probably have the worst hand is generally not good in razz.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

How do you know he has the best hand on 4th?

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

call 3rd
don't RR 4th
river is close IMO

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

I think the complete is fine on 3rd. It's just a more aggressive path than most take with a 9, but because its concealed I don't find anything wrong with it. I however don't raise 4th there you are often behind.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

I wouldn't raise 4th, either. If you read him as a regular and good, then what is his read of you? (I'm big on table image.) He could have a very big hand and still not be reraising 3rd if he perceives you as real aggro.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

I may be tighter than most, but I fold 3rd, especially after a good player is already in the pot. He's not limping with a J down.

4th, raising is very bad. We don't *know* he has the best hand, but the chances are much better than even that he does. And when he does, he can make it really expensive for us, just like he did here.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't raise 4th, either. If you read him as a regular and good, then what is his read of you? (I'm big on table image.) He could have a very big hand and still not be reraising 3rd if he perceives you as real aggro.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's probably a true characterisation that I am an over-aggressive donkey in this game.

Anyway, I guess I might be off base in the issue, but I really only think raising here is "very bad" when he has a slowplayed monster. If a weak line is best here I really think I should have just thrown this hand away on 3rd, which I guess maybe is the preferable play according to you guys?

If he had only a slightly better hand than mine, which I read him for, I think raising here is good. Although maybe you disagree on this too?

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

don't raise fourth, bet/call seventh

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
don't raise fourth, bet/call seventh

[/ QUOTE ]

3rd is ok, depends on villains tendencies. I often limp along here.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I guess I might be off base in the issue, but I really only think raising here is "very bad" when he has a slowplayed monster.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he's a good regular, then slowplaying a monster in ep is a definite possibility (even tho I don't think betgo plays 3/6 much). It's a powerful play due to its deception and it obviously worked here. Also, if he's good then he's not betting 4th just b/c the software prompted him to -- he's got a hand, and it's almost always better than yours since you're overrepresenting your holding.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, if he's good then he's not betting 4th just b/c the software prompted him to

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you're joking, but this is what I feel that a lot of people do. Just because they have the lower two cards they think they must bet.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]

If he had only a slightly better hand than mine, which I read him for, I think raising here is good. Although maybe you disagree on this too?

[/ QUOTE ]
We might be able to answer this better if you explain why you think raising forth is good. Is is for value? To represent a strong hand so he'll fold now or on a later street? Both of those reasons seem wrong to me - perhaps you had something else in mind? You can't be ahead here 50%+ of the time, so raising for value is out. He's not folding 4th unless he's bluffing with a pair. As for getting a fold later, a 4th street raise bloats the pot, giving him better odds on 'thin' call on the later streets.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, if he's good then he's not betting 4th just b/c the software prompted him to

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you're joking, but this is what I feel that a lot of people do. Just because they have the lower two cards they think they must bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, it's not a joke. happens all the time.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know you're joking, but this is what I feel that a lot of people do. Just because they have the lower two cards they think they must bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read enough of his posts -- I don't think he was joking.

(Edited: he beat me to it... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

One note that I make on a player (when I see it, which is rare) is someone who will check-fold a better board than mine. This is such a mark of a solid player that it should never go unnoticed. It's somewhat exploitable if you notice that he never check-raises (reminder: if you can check-fold xxA2 then you better check-call and check-raise some times). It happened to me today, which is why I think of it. I am always wary of players who don't bet when it looks like they're supposed to.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If he had only a slightly better hand than mine, which I read him for, I think raising here is good. Although maybe you disagree on this too?

[/ QUOTE ]
We might be able to answer this better if you explain why you think raising forth is good. Is is for value? To represent a strong hand so he'll fold now or on a later street? Both of those reasons seem wrong to me - perhaps you had something else in mind? You can't be ahead here 50%+ of the time, so raising for value is out. He's not folding 4th unless he's bluffing with a pair. As for getting a fold later, a 4th street raise bloats the pot, giving him better odds on 'thin' call on the later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here are some reasons:
1) If I represent a good hand now with a worse board, I may very well get checked to if we catch similarly on 5th street, if he doesn't have a great hand. Similarly, he is very unlikely to lead out into me on 5th if he pairs up.

2) (Assuming he doesn't have a great hand) I do think he is more likely to fold if I catch good on the next street, even if this does bloat the pot it's still only two extra SB.

3) I like to have an aggro image with weak hands, when I'm only marginally behind. A smooth 9 is really marginally behind an 8.

Obviously there are quite negative aspects to the play too, as you have all noted.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
One note that I make on a player (when I see it, which is rare) is someone who will check-fold a better board than mine. This is such a mark of a solid player that it should never go unnoticed. It's somewhat exploitable if you notice that he never check-raises (reminder: if you can check-fold xxA2 then you better check-call and check-raise some times). It happened to me today, which is why I think of it. I am always wary of players who don't bet when it looks like they're supposed to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain might check fold (92)A2.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

Of course he might. But plenty of dumb villians are going to bet, because their board looks better. Someone who resists that urge and folds deserves a comment.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's probably a true characterisation that I am an over-aggressive donkey in this game.

Anyway, I guess I might be off base in the issue, but I really only think raising here is "very bad" when he has a slowplayed monster. If a weak line is best here I really think I should have just thrown this hand away on 3rd, which I guess maybe is the preferable play according to you guys?


[/ QUOTE ] I think "donkey" is a little harsh, you are a pretty smart player. I'm not sure I'd have folded on 3rd, tho' I generally don't play too many 9s. I like this one as a "take a cheap look" hand. And I am not saying 4th raise is wrong so much as saying, "Know why you do whatever you do." It's an axiom from my cop days - how you approach a car, hold a flashlight, take an attitude, you have to know why you do what you do the way you do it.

If this approach works for you, gets you more bets in the long run, then it does. If you go over your hands and think it isn't working so well, you might make a different choice. One thing for sure, if you suddenly tighten up, I bet all these people pay you off for a long time!

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

Rusty, that's exactly what I was trying to say. That's a situation where you would want to put a note on a villain of that occurrence.

A laggier opponent would probably bet into you if you brick.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rusty, that's exactly what I was trying to say. That's a situation where you would want to put a note on a villain of that occurrence.

A laggier opponent would probably bet into you if you brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or even if I don't. But yeah, I think we're in agreement, a note needs to go on this opponent, since he is showing signs of not being totally clueless.

Re: Razz - playing a 9
 

I really don't mind 3rd or 4th. Usually a monster limp on 3rd is going for a c/r, and on 4th a lot of players will make this bet trying to represent better than the four card 7 when they don't have it. The raise gives you the info you need for cheap, and after the 3rd bet I guess we have to believe him, but the rest of the hand is fine. 7th is nowhere near close if you are folding this you must be drunk, retarded, high, or some combination of the 3.