Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

Which is the correct re-raise regarding the "double the raise" rule in no-limit (for this purpose, no-limit hold'em) games.

Blinds $50/$100

Initial raise is $250 (minimum re-raise is $400).

If the next player re-raises to $500 from the initial raise of $250, what's the minimum raise by the next player?

a) $750 ($250 + $500)
There's a raise of $250, which will be added to the
current bet of $500, making the total $750. This is the
way I understand the "double the raise" rule.

b) $900 ($400 + $500)
There's a re-evaluation of the raise from the big blind
of the $100 is $500-$100=$400. On top of the $500
re-raise would mean the next minimum re-raise is $900

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

a) $750 ($250 + $500)

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

The first raise was $150 (BB/$100 + $150 = $250). Therefore, the next raise must be $150 or more. If the next player raises to $750, he has made a raise of $500. In order to raise (ignoring for the moment a player with fewer chips going all in), the next player must raise by at least $500. The total bet therefore would be at least $1250.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

The correct answer is "a". To my knowledge, this was universal in Vegas until recently.

For better or worse, Planet Hollywood has adopted a seemingly insane rule that states the raise must be double the previous bet.

So a player bets 100 on the flop and the next player raises to 250. A player wanting to raise the bet of 250 must make it a minimum of 500 (not 400).

Strange but true. (at least as of a couple months ago)

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The correct answer is "a". To my knowledge, this was universal in Vegas until recently.

For better or worse, Planet Hollywood has adopted a seemingly insane rule that states the raise must be double the previous bet.

So a player bets 100 on the flop and the next player raises to 250. A player wanting to raise the bet of 250 must make it a minimum of 500 (not 400).

Strange but true. (at least as of a couple months ago)

[/ QUOTE ]

From my understanding, there are two no-limit raise rules.
First one (what I thought to be more common) is "double the raise" rule and the second is "double the bet" rule.
Seems like Planet Hollywood adopted the "double the bet" rule.

I still think that a) is the correct answer but I've had b) suggested by a tournament director who does fairly large tournaments.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

I play in alot of casinos in alot of states, and I've never run across a "double the bet" rule.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

I believe San Pablo has the nutty 'double the bet' rule. I've only played there a few times, and when I tried to quietly correct a dealer on a min-raise, I was told StFU, it's double the bet.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

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I believe San Pablo has the nutty 'double the bet' rule. I've only played there a few times, and when I tried to quietly correct a dealer on a min-raise, I was told StFU, it's double the bet.

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Same happened to me recently here in Florida, at the Isle. I didn't follow up to find out if it's the house rule or if the dealer was wrong.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe San Pablo has the nutty 'double the bet' rule. I've only played there a few times, and when I tried to quietly correct a dealer on a min-raise, I was told StFU, it's double the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know a couple of places that use it. I have never worked with it, but someone whose opinion on these things I trust told me it is the better rule and I should consider switching.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

I've always been confused by this, but because I don't make min-raises ever, I've never really had to figure it out.

So lets say its a .25/.50 cash game, yeah? UTG raises to $1.00, a .50 raise. Can the next player raise it to $1.50? And if he does, for the next player, does this mean the current "raise" is $1.00, and so he has to make it $2.50 to go? Or can he make it $2.00?

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

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I know a couple of places that use it. I have never worked with it, but someone whose opinion on these things I trust told me it is the better rule and I should consider switching.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did they give reasons?

Surely it's easier (math is hard!), but it can really screw things up if you're trying to get a shorty to push after you so that you can re-raise. But in most cases, a min re-raise makes no sense anyway.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know a couple of places that use it. I have never worked with it, but someone whose opinion on these things I trust told me it is the better rule and I should consider switching.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did they give reasons?

Surely it's easier (math is hard!), but it can really screw things up if you're trying to get a shorty to push after you so that you can re-raise. But in most cases, a min re-raise makes no sense anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This discussion was years ago and might be different today as the game has changed quite a bit. The math is easier and it keeps the game moving. There is another rule (that I never seen mentioned anymore) is that all raises after the third (sometimes 4th) raise must be at least half the pot. Doing double the total bet removes this issue. This business about raising at least half the pot protects a player form being between two people that decide to min raise until they get all the money in the center.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The first raise was $150 (BB/$100 + $150 = $250). Therefore, the next raise must be $150 or more. If the next player raises to $750, he has made a raise of $500. In order to raise (ignoring for the moment a player with fewer chips going all in), the next player must raise by at least $500. The total bet therefore would be at least $1250.

[/ QUOTE ]

winnar!

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

The math is definately easier on the modified rule.

As was stated earlier, I am also worried about what reopens the betting. 100/200 blinds, Player A makes it 400, B raises to 800, and C goes all-in for 1500. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a rule that closes out B at this point if there are no other raises.

[ QUOTE ]
This business about raising at least half the pot protects a player form being between two people that decide to min raise until they get all the money in the center.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never been in an actual situation where this business about capping raises in a NL game has come up. I have learned that a couple of places do maintain the rule in their NL games is a bet and 3 (or 4) raises is a cap.

I never understood the argument for protecting a player in a NL game. In limit, a player has a reasonable expectation of seeing the next card without having to risk all his chips (it's the nature of limit, and it's also the rule--the raise cap in a multi-way pot). The NL player has no right to such an expectation. That is the nature of NL--one might have to make a decision for all of one's chips on any given betting round.

I understand that it would be most dishonest for two players (playing together) to minraise each other (and the bystandard) until either all-in or the bystandard goes away. But the idea of restricting a player's ability to raise the bet in NL just doesn't sit well at all with me.

That idea of making a raise (after the 3rd or 4th) be at least 1/2 the pot would seem to accomodate both positions (though it is quite cumbersome and given the infrequency with which the situation arises it is succeptable to misapplication.)

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

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That idea of making a raise (after the 3rd or 4th) be at least 1/2 the pot would seem to accomodate both positions (though it is quite cumbersome and given the infrequency with which the situation arises it is succeptable to misapplication.)

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I have never seen this rule come up in actual play. It would be really rare to see a situation where players are making many raises on one street without someone deciding to push all-in.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
For better or worse, Planet Hollywood has adopted a seemingly insane rule that states the raise must be double the previous bet.

So a player bets 100 on the flop and the next player raises to 250. A player wanting to raise the bet of 250 must make it a minimum of 500 (not 400).

Strange but true. (at least as of a couple months ago)

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this "seemingly insane" or even strange?

Note that Hawaiian Gardens uses this method.

~ Rick

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

I used the term "seemingly insane" for a few reasons.

It's the first I've ever played (or even heard of) with such a rule in place.

While I understand that limit and NL are two very different games, the definition of a raise in limit is an amount equal to the amount of the previous bet or raise.

At a certain level almost any rule can be justified. This is after all simply a game. What are the goals of a game?

A house could start dealing counterclockwise and running the action backwards. I would call this "seemingly insane" too, but at a certain level it's just a change in the way things have always been done.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

This was not the case when the room first opened a few years ago (back when it was still aladdin). Minimum reraise was simply that the last bet or raise had to be matched, not the entire amount doubled. The doubling rule is just plain silly, a rule adapted to account for th fact that dealers and players don't have a clue and don't want to get one either. I'm actually quite surprised that planet hollywood's staff would change this rule. Most of the staff hasn't changed and they all had no problem with it before.

Al

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
This was not the case when the room first opened a few years ago (back when it was still aladdin). Minimum reraise was simply that the last bet or raise had to be matched, not the entire amount doubled. The doubling rule is just plain silly, a rule adapted to account for th fact that dealers and players don't have a clue and don't want to get one either. I'm actually quite surprised that planet hollywood's staff would change this rule. Most of the staff hasn't changed and they all had no problem with it before.

Al

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I think you are mistaken as to the reason for the rule. FOr as long as I can remember the current manager of the room has told me he thinks its a better rule because he believes that ist un fair to allow players to keep making a small raise back and forth to catch a player between them, not that his dealers can't figure out how to work the more standard rule.

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
FOr as long as I can remember the current manager of the room has told me he thinks its a better rule because he believes that ist un fair to allow players to keep making a small raise back and forth to catch a player between them, not that his dealers can't figure out how to work the more standard rule.

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How 'bout just enforcing 4 raises when it's a multi-way pot?

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are mistaken as to the reason for the rule. FOr as long as I can remember the current manager of the room has told me he thinks its a better rule because he believes that ist un fair to allow players to keep making a small raise back and forth to catch a player between them, not that his dealers can't figure out how to work the more standard rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was told by Dave Simon of Hawaiian Gardens. Dave at HG had multiple no limit games going a year before the WPT (and hole card cams) started the current boom.

A series of mini-raises was almost unheard of in the few games played years ago. Now in the very small games you will see it in the LA clubs with the regular rule. Instead at HG the "double the bet you are facing" rule allows the initial mini-raise but forces players to put in something close to a "real" raise for subsequent raises.

~ Rick

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FOr as long as I can remember the current manager of the room has told me he thinks its a better rule because he believes that ist un fair to allow players to keep making a small raise back and forth to catch a player between them, not that his dealers can't figure out how to work the more standard rule.

[/ QUOTE ]
How 'bout just enforcing 4 raises when it's a multi-way pot?

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Or make four raises the cap (unless head up per Ciaffone's guidelines) AND use the double the bet rule!

~ Rick

Edit to mention that in LA three rasies would be the cap (unless head up as defined by Ciaffone).

Re: Question regarding the Double The Raise rule...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are mistaken as to the reason for the rule. FOr as long as I can remember the current manager of the room has told me he thinks its a better rule because he believes that ist un fair to allow players to keep making a small raise back and forth to catch a player between them, not that his dealers can't figure out how to work the more standard rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was told by Dave Simon of Hawaiian Gardens. Dave at HG had multiple no limit games going a year before the WPT (and hole card cams) started the current boom.

A series of mini-raises was almost unheard of in the few games played years ago. Now in the very small games you will see it in the LA clubs with the regular rule. Instead at HG the "double the bet you are facing" rule allows the initial mini-raise but forces players to put in something close to a "real" raise for subsequent raises.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a huge problem with a double the bet rule. I don't think I have personally ever raised less than double the bet. And when someone does a min-raise to me, I love it for the pot odds and the information.

(Example: I have 77 mid and open for 3xBB. Next player re-raises to 5xBB and BB calls and it's back to me. There's a 13.5BB pot and need to put in 2BB to call. I practically don't even need any implied odds to call this. Plus, I'm certain re-raiser has a high pair and he's being "tricky" with his min-raise. If a 7 hits I will stack him.)

The only drawback I am seeing here is when there is a raise and then an all-in. The difference between using the min-raise rule and the double bet rule for re-opening the betting after the all-in might be significant.