Help a tournament newbie out...
 

Please take it easy on the newbie... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I've been playing .50/1 and 1/2 limit cash games moderately successfully for the past several years. I'm not making enough to make a living, but I haven't reloaded my PP account in quite a while either.

I am trying to make the transition to NL tourneys, but I'm having a lot of trouble with betting my hands properly. This happened tonight and is a perfect example:

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 <font color="#A500AF">(Villian)</font> (t1395)
MP2 (t1360)
MP3 (t2015)
CO (t1100)
Button (t1375)
SB (t3055)
BB (t3775)
Hero (t1290)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, UTG+1 calls t150, MP1 <font color="#A500AF">(Villian)</font> calls t150, MP2 calls t150, MP3 calls t150, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: (t825) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1140 (All-In)</font>, UTG+1 folds, Villian calls t1140, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: (t3105) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>
.

River: (t3105) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3105

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 9d 9h (one pair, nines).
Villian has 4d 4s (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: Villian wins t3105. </font>

Here is what I am thinking, and I hope you will tell me where I am going wrong... (nicely, please!)

1) 9, 9 is a raise in a limit game, marginally so UTG, but I would be prepared to lay it down if a reraise or huge flop came about. Extending that theory to NLHE, I figure 3x BB is good here.

2) This was the first hand with this many callers, usually 2 or 3 go to the flop. This surprised me. But for some (stupid!) reason, it didn't scare me.

3) Now after the flop, I was thinking that I probably had the best hand. Anything from AA down to JJ should have reraised me preflop. So, I pushed.

Of course villian's pocket 4s crush me.

My fundamental low/micro-limit strategy has been bet when you have the best hand, which I'm beginning to realize isn't right in the NL world. So what should I have done, and why?

Thanks!

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

The problem with this push is the ONLY hands calling you have you beat. with this many people in the pot lead out half pot and see what happens... if someone calls and somone else reraised or something like that this is an easy fold.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

I think you played it fine. Std opening raise of 3x (mix it up with 4x sometimes), and what looks to be a good flop. You have to bet it strong, and a 3/4 PSB or more commits you anyway, hence shoving also looks good. All in all, I think you did well and just got unlucky. This is one of those situations where a large percentage of the time we're taking this down or doubling through a whiffed draw. Question yourself based on what happens here most of the time, and not what actually happened.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this push is the ONLY hands calling you have you beat. with this many people in the pot lead out half pot and see what happens... if someone calls and somone else reraised or something like that this is an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're forgetting hands like a flush draw with overs, and even something like 77 may look you up hoping you're pushing AK. Can't lead 1/2 pot here, you want to protect your hand. With that kind of bet you're giving 3:1, and after the flop overcards are usually 3:1 to improve.

If you lead 600 here, you have around 500 left. There's no way I'm folding to a re-raise in a pot that would now be around 2K, getting 4:1 with an overpair.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

Is anyone mucking preflop or just calling...Guess it depends on table dynamics but I'm folding to a LAG table..the raise is acceptable at a tight passive table..

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

this is not a case where the only hands that call him are beating him. however im not saying the open push is a good line to take here.

i usually limp with this stack but the flop shove really isnt that bad.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

I think that early in a tournament I'm limping 99 UTG and basically playing for set value.

Hopefully lots of others overlimp, and you can flop a set in a multiway pot. The worst spot to be in is the one in which you found yourself--a huge pot OOP with a fairly marginal hand.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

ok 99 utg is marginal. u may not have best hand when u get called 1010-qq may flat call. now if you do have best hand there are pp in play (uh oh i see a set coming) but you are in tough spot. if you bet ai is correct. if you check its over fold. i have no idea what id do here id prob shove too

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

I'd be inclined to check here &amp; shove if only one player bets, but fold if more than one does. If everybody checks, I'd employ the same plan on the turn.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

not on that turn.
check shoving that K after flop checks is horrible

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

This is tough spot. It seems like a great flop for 99. I guess you pretty much have to shove. A lot of time you'll win without a challenge and once in a while you'll get called and be way behind. Not much you can do in that situation.

I like the idea of limping UTG with 99 at this stage of a tournament.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

with your stack the whole line was fine...don't think we can get away from that flop with the amount we have left

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

Since you play low stakes, i am assuming the buy in to this tournament does not exceed $50. That being said, in the very early levels, looks like u were in the first level, I hate going broke in marginal spots. In these low buy-in MTT's, people will GIVE you the chips, you just hafta wait for the right spot. It also depends on what kind of player you are (accumulator/solid). If you are an accumulator and your goal was to double up in the first or 2nd level then I guess, you are going to go broke with 99 on 8 high flop. But if you are just trying to play solid and chip up without much risk, i think limping the 99 and playing for set value is definitely a good option.

Raising 99 UTG is not a bad play, it may be kind of light, but the blinds are small and you can get away cheap if there is too much action.

I don't think you can check that flop with 4 players behind, all flush draws open ended draws will prob bet out and you will prob end up raising them anyways, top pair will bet out. Most likely, overpairs to your 9's will 3bet PF, but you never know, you prob havnt been at the table long enough to make that read. What is wrong with half the pot size bet? You will get plenty of information from it and if anyone shoves, (which will prob be the only reraise made considering stack sizes). I would definitely fold and move on.

You are only getting called by better hands than yourself most of the time and if someone decides to get frisky and call with only a draw and 2 overs, you are still barely a favorite.

all in all tho, I can definitely see myself going broke here, 4 callers behind sounds like a bunch of garbage is floating around the table and my hand is best.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

Haven't read other replies yet, so forgive me if I'm repeating stuff.

1. 99 UTG can be a raise or a limp depending on table conditions and your stack. With your stack (26 BBs) I could honestly go either way but I'm leaning slightly toward limping.

3. I would think that I had the best hand here also. But I really don't want to see another card and have and A or K hit the turn. The pot is pretty close to the size of your remaining stack, so pushing here is completely reasonable.

As for your comment on betting with the best hand, much more often than not you'll find that same reasoning applies to NLHE as well.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

Wow - there's some really bad advice in this thread.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

well played - once you get that many callers (without a reraise) and have the pot same size as your stack on the flop you are committed with your overpair.

With that many villains you could consider a c/r all-in, as you get more money in the pot, while I would never if it is likely to be checked through, as your 99 is terrible vulnerable to any turn-card.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow - there's some really bad advice in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Echo'ing.

The shove is fine; hands you are beating are calling you, but most importantly you can not play any turn or river card and the pot isn't small enough to let get away. Folding is folding an edge and anything other than a jam is going make you play a scary turn.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The shove is fine; hands you are beating are calling you, but most importantly you can not play any turn or river card and the pot isn't small enough to let get away. Folding is folding an edge and anything other than a jam is going make you play a scary turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was basically my thought process as well, and it's good to have it validated. I figured all that were left were AK-A10 and flush hunters, and that a push would chase them all out, or at least give me 70/30 odds against someone with 4 cards to the flush. And without a re-raise before the flop I figured that's what the hands out there were playing.

What I take away from this is:

1) I like the idea of betting about half the pot as an information probe, but I don't think that would work this early in the tournament... my low-level limit cash game experience is that people will call 2 or 3 raises on a flush draw. Would 1/3 to 1/4 of their stack really be enough to make most of them fold?

2) This was at worst a marginally questionable play, and at best, the right thing to do. Maybe I'm not quite as stupid at this as I think. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks all.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

As played, the shove is fine--at these stakes you'll get called more often by A8, K8, and draws than by sets two pair or overpairs.

However, OP has a background in limit, and it should be pointed out the value of hitting sets in multi-way pots this deep.

99 is on the cusp, but middling pairs like this, this deep, can be very easy to play when you limp them in EP

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

This whole hand is fine. Preflop raise is OK. With all the cold callers you only have about a PSB left on the flop and with an overpair you have to bet.

Since any meaningful flop bet pot commits you it was good to get it all in on the flop to maximize your FE and charge draws the most with no implied odds to suck out. If someone caught a lucky flop then good for him and tough luck for you but you can't give a free card on this flop so you want to get it all in.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

So often in these low stakes multi way pots, especially early on, there will be a donk that bets the minimum with any kind of pair or draw, and everyone behind him calls.

I'd get greedy and check/push if this table has shown the tendency to do that.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

I'll echo that you played the hand fine. My basic strategy 99 is a limp utg, but a raise pf isn't horrible. After the flop shoving is your only viable option. 3/4 of the deck is scary on the turn and any bet leaves you pot committed.

Re: Help a tournament newbie out...
 

[ QUOTE ]


1) I like the idea of betting about half the pot as an information probe, but I don't think that would work this early in the tournament... my low-level limit cash game experience is that people will call 2 or 3 raises on a flush draw. Would 1/3 to 1/4 of their stack really be enough to make most of them fold?

2) This was at worst a marginally questionable play, and at best, the right thing to do. Maybe I'm not quite as stupid at this as I think. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks all.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a well thought out play. That said, you don't want to make any bet here that won't maximize fold equity. That's why the jam is the best play.