Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

For the sake of argument, suppose that there is a God that created the universe and that He is omnipotent (as many of His followers believe He is). Presumably then in creating the universe, He decided upon the various scientific laws that appear to govern physical interactions within the universe (picking all of the equations and setting values for all the constants, etc). Did He also write the rules of logic? That sounds like a crazy question, but please hear me out. If He did not write the rules of logic, then it seems He would be bound by them, making Him not omnipotent. It seems many would use such an argument to conclude that a truly omnipotent God must not exist.

Before you make that conclusion, I'm wondering about the alternative. If He really were truly omnipotent, it would seem that He would not be bound by any laws (unless He wanted to be), so as the "inventor" of logic, He would be free to break the rules at will. That would seem to have all sorts of crazy implications. For example, all those weird questions about immovable objects and four-sided triangles could actually be solved in the affirmative if this truly omnipotent God is allowed to rewrite logic as He sees fit. I think if nothing else it's something interesting to think about.

Please don't get the wrong idea about me by that post. I'm not someone that hates logic and is trying to throw it out the window or something. Logic happens to be important to me and my area of study. Frankly I'm not sure how even I feel about the scenario, but I feel like it deserves at least some thought. People see a logical contradiction in the notion of omnipotence, but maybe omnipotence can counteract that problem somehow.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of argument, suppose that there is a God that created the universe and that He is omnipotent (as many of His followers believe He is). Presumably then in creating the universe, He decided upon the various scientific laws that appear to govern physical interactions within the universe (picking all of the equations and setting values for all the constants, etc). Did He also write the rules of logic? That sounds like a crazy question, but please hear me out. If He did not write the rules of logic, then it seems He would be bound by them, making Him not omnipotent. It seems many would use such an argument to conclude that a truly omnipotent God must not exist.

Before you make that conclusion, I'm wondering about the alternative. If He really were truly omnipotent, it would seem that He would not be bound by any laws (unless He wanted to be), so as the "inventor" of logic, He would be free to break the rules at will. That would seem to have all sorts of crazy implications. For example, all those weird questions about immovable objects and four-sided triangles could actually be solved in the affirmative if this truly omnipotent God is allowed to rewrite logic as He sees fit. I think if nothing else it's something interesting to think about.

Please don't get the wrong idea about me by that post. I'm not someone that hates logic and is trying to throw it out the window or something. Logic happens to be important to me and my area of study. Frankly I'm not sure how even I feel about the scenario, but I feel like it deserves at least some thought. People see a logical contradiction in the notion of omnipotence, but maybe omnipotence can counteract that problem somehow.



[/ QUOTE ] Well obviously God isn't omnipotent. Show me in the bible where this word is used.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of argument, suppose that there is a God that created the universe and that He is omnipotent (as many of His followers believe He is). Presumably then in creating the universe, He decided upon the various scientific laws that appear to govern physical interactions within the universe (picking all of the equations and setting values for all the constants, etc). Did He also write the rules of logic? That sounds like a crazy question, but please hear me out. If He did not write the rules of logic, then it seems He would be bound by them, making Him not omnipotent. It seems many would use such an argument to conclude that a truly omnipotent God must not exist.

Before you make that conclusion, I'm wondering about the alternative. If He really were truly omnipotent, it would seem that He would not be bound by any laws (unless He wanted to be), so as the "inventor" of logic, He would be free to break the rules at will. That would seem to have all sorts of crazy implications. For example, all those weird questions about immovable objects and four-sided triangles could actually be solved in the affirmative if this truly omnipotent God is allowed to rewrite logic as He sees fit. I think if nothing else it's something interesting to think about.

Please don't get the wrong idea about me by that post. I'm not someone that hates logic and is trying to throw it out the window or something. Logic happens to be important to me and my area of study. Frankly I'm not sure how even I feel about the scenario, but I feel like it deserves at least some thought. People see a logical contradiction in the notion of omnipotence, but maybe omnipotence can counteract that problem somehow.



[/ QUOTE ] Well obviously God isn't omnipotent. Show me in the bible where this word is used.

[/ QUOTE ]

My post has nothing to do with the Bible. If you like, pretend that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is omnipotent and created the universe. Now ask yourselves those questions about omnipotence and the FSM.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
My post has nothing to do with the Bible. If you like, pretend that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is omnipotent and created the universe. Now ask yourselves those questions about omnipotence and the FSM.


[/ QUOTE ] duh. obviously. Whether I invoke the bible or not, makes no difference. God can't be omnipotent. Your analysis is correct. I wasn't disputing you.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well obviously God isn't omnipotent. Show me in the bible where this word is used.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for fun though, I thought I'd point out Revelations 19:6 according to the King James version:
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

That's not even the version of the Bible I use, but I just wanted to mention that.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just for fun though, I thought I'd point out Revelations 19:6 according to the King James version:
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

That's not even the version of the Bible I use, but I just wanted to mention that.



[/ QUOTE ] You pwned me there. I didn't realize that that word was even mentioned in the Bible. Sorry. It's been a while since I read it.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

Logic as with math is independent of an omnipotent power. Both have laws that are either true (universally) or false (universally). Knowing this and how to optimally employ each are some of the reasons for God's omnipotence. I guess.

pokervintage

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

Arent any discussions about God's omnipotence kind of silly and meaningless since none of us has the slightest clue wtf omnipotent means?

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Arent any discussions about God's omnipotence kind of silly and meaningless since none of us has the slightest clue wtf omnipotent means?


[/ QUOTE ] I would certainly agree with your statement. Can God make 2 plus 2 equal 5? What exactly does omnipotence mean? Can he alter the law of physics or not? I'm not sure anyone knows the definition as used in the OP's biblical reference, as the bible didn't elaborate.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Arent any discussions about God's omnipotence kind of silly and meaningless since none of us has the slightest clue wtf omnipotent means?

[/ QUOTE ]

What does their silliness and/or meaninglessness have to do with whether or not they should be discussed? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I tried to be explicit that I meant a true omnipotence, I suppose essentially meaning that "a true omnipotent figure can do X" for all values of X, even if this leads to a contradiction. There are of course other variations, but for this thread I meant truly no limitations on power. It could be the case that there is an omnipotent creator that can do all things that are not logical contradictions, but I wasn't considering that here.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can God make 2 plus 2 equal 5?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't everyone know that 2+2=5 for all sufficiently large values of 2?

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

God cannot be both omnipotent and omnisentient. He just can't.

If God is omnisentient, then He already knows that Sam will be fatally hit by a bus tomorrow at 2PM.

If God is omnipotent, then He should have the power to save Sam. But how is this possible?

Btw- I consider this to be different than the, "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it", or, "Can God create a square circle". The bus incident is not meant to be a mockery of theistic logic. It's a real event.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

Well, if god is omnipotent isn't it a given that he already knows everything that _can_ happen and also has the power to change it? Which would make omnisentience rather moot?

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

I used to think about this on a regular basis, but I always came to the same conclusions.

First, even if God supersedes logic, I don't. Logic is the best tool I have for interpreting the world around me. (It's possible that faith or emotion are the most reliable tools for some people, but not for me. My emotions are unreliable and conflicted, and I have only experienced faith as an emotion.)

Second, if God exists and if God created us, it seems that he granted us the ability to reason and wants us to use it. This is a circular argument, but I have few expressive alternatives. Maybe I'm too trusting, but here's reason, it "feels right," nothing else "feels right," I'm using reason.

As a result, I'll assume that logic holds true on general principle, and for my own sanity. If logic refutes a conception of God, then I will consider that conception of God an impossibility and proceed accordingly.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

Oh yeah, this also refutes omnibenevolence because if God is truly benevolent he can prevent all suffering without any of the necessary consequences. For example, the logical argument "evil exists because free will exists" is easily transcended by a truly omnipotent God. Such a God could grant free will without evil.

(I think there are numerous other problems with that arguments, I'm just using it for the sake of an example. The point is that there is no justifiction for suffering, because God transcends justification. God can have justice and mercy at the same time, if he transcends reason.)

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
If God is omnisentient, then He already knows that Sam will be fatally hit by a bus tomorrow at 2PM.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he will not know this. He will only know the precise probability that Sam will be fatally hit by the Bus. When it comes to prediction that is all omniscience can do. But if he is also omnipotent, why then he can ensure that the Bus hits Sam.

pokervintage

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't everyone know that 2+2=5 for all sufficiently large values of 2?


[/ QUOTE ] I'll bite on this one. I don't have a math background, but any two sufficiantly large to make two plus two equal five would no longer be two.

But of course it wasn't my point to bicker. Can God make 2 plus 2 equal 6?

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't everyone know that 2+2=5 for all sufficiently large values of 2?


[/ QUOTE ] I'll bite on this one. I don't have a math background, but any two sufficiantly large to make two plus two equal five would no longer be two.

But of course it wasn't my point to bicker. Can God make 2 plus 2 equal 6?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if it's 2.999... + 2.999...? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
What if it's 2.999... + 2.999...?



[/ QUOTE ]Madnak, my definition of two is different from yours. I don't see how 2.999 . . . is called two. Do mathemeticians see things differently than I? If so, put me out of my misery and teach me something, because right now, I'm not getting it.

edit - I can see how 2.999 . . . is called 3 but not two. I think you are delusional.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

Just making a joke about an old thread.

Edit - I think mickey's also joking.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just making a joke about an old thread.

Edit - I think mickey's also joking.


[/ QUOTE ] ha, I wasn't aware of the old thread. Also, I don't have a mathmatics background. And I am drunk. This proves to me once again that I am a genius.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
ha, I wasn't aware of the old thread. Also, I don't have a mathmatics background. And I am drunk. This proves to me once again that I am a genius.

[/ QUOTE ]

You look smarter than 99% of the people who posted in that thread (not to mention the airplane thread and the jason_t/John Nash thread).

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God is omnisentient, then He already knows that Sam will be fatally hit by a bus tomorrow at 2PM.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he will not know this. He will only know the precise probability that Sam will be fatally hit by the Bus. When it comes to prediction that is all omniscience can do. But if he is also omnipotent, why then he can ensure that the Bus hits Sam.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I thought the definition of omnipotence was all-knowing? Or is my sarcasm meter on the fritz again?

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
You look smarter than 99% of the people who posted in that thread (not to mention the airplane thread and the jason_t/John Nash thread).



[/ QUOTE ] I was joking about myself being a genius. I get smart attacks on occasion. But thanks for the reassuring words, it makes me feel good coming from you.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

<font color="blue"> Well, if god is omnipotent isn't it a given that he already knows everything that _can_ happen and also has the power to change it? </font>

Omnipotence is all-powerful. Omniscience is all-knowing. So no, that doesn't follow.

If God knows whether or not Sam will be hit by a bus tomorrow, then He is powerless to change it. Hence, it cannot be omnipotent.

If God has the ability to stop Sam from being bit by a bus (or to cause a bus to hit Sam), then He could not have known what was going to happen before hand. Hence, He is not all-knowing.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I thought the definition of omnipotence was all-knowing? Or is my sarcasm meter on the fritz again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as there's lesser omnipotence (God can do anything, but he can't defy logic) and greater omnipotence (God can do anything), so there's lesser omniscience (God knows all, except outcomes) and greater omniscience (God knows all). It's "inherent" versus "total" omniscience.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

omniscience- The capacity to know everything.

omnipotent - Having unlimited power, force or authority.

pokervintage

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I thought the definition of omnipotence was all-knowing? Or is my sarcasm meter on the fritz again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as there's lesser omnipotence (God can do anything, but he can't defy logic) and greater omnipotence (God can do anything), so there's lesser omniscience (God knows all, except outcomes) and greater omniscience (God knows all). It's "inherent" versus "total" omniscience.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I believe it's been well established that the biblical God knows the future. Hence, His omniscience should include knowing whether or not Sam gets hit by the bus (Jesus knew He would be betrayed, didn't He? -- He also knew Peter would deny Him 3 times before the [censored] crows, right?).

And if this is true, then the omnipotence God possessed would be tiny indeed. Since, any of us would be able to stop Sam from getting hit by a bus if we knew the exact time and place it would happen.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You look smarter than 99% of the people who posted in that thread (not to mention the airplane thread and the jason_t/John Nash thread).



[/ QUOTE ] I was joking about myself being a genius. I get smart attacks on occasion. But thanks for the reassuring words, it makes me feel good coming from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I think you're very smart. But you have no idea how low I set the bar with that comment.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
omniscience- The capacity to know everything.

omnipotent - Having unlimited power, force or authority.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets not forget the killer: omni benevolent, for the well being of everything. Obviously, manifestly not experienced in the world (animal, human and any other(?) sentient being included). Having said that, the dude isn't to be trusted with whatever he says.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
omniscience- The capacity to know everything.

omnipotent - Having unlimited power, force or authority.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so why do you say: <font color="blue">"No he will not know this." </font> in response to:

<font color="green"> If God is omnisentient, then He already knows that Sam will be fatally hit by a bus tomorrow at 2PM. </font>

??

If God has the capacity to know everything, then He should know how and when Sam will die. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I believe it's been well established that the biblical God knows the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, but we aren't talking about the biblical God, are we? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

I always default to the biblical God when a Christian brings up God. Silly me.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
omniscience- The capacity to know everything.

omnipotent - Having unlimited power, force or authority.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so why do you say: <font color="blue">"No he will not know this." </font> in response to:

<font color="green"> If God is omnisentient, then He already knows that Sam will be fatally hit by a bus tomorrow at 2PM. </font>

??

If God has the capacity to know everything, then He should know how and when Sam will die. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sold on this. We could just claim that god knows everything that _could_ happen (aka. anything since we assume omnipotency) and is free to chose which.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
If God knows whether or not Sam will be hit by a bus tomorrow, then He is powerless to change it. Hence, it cannot be omnipotent.

If God has the ability to stop Sam from being bit by a bus (or to cause a bus to hit Sam), then He could not have known what was going to happen before hand. Hence, He is not all-knowing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously are not a gambler. God knows that if an unbiased random event occurs, he, even with his omniscient side, can only predict the probability of it occurring. However, if he wants to, since he is also omnipotent, he can control the elements of a physical event at the macro level and make the bus hit Sam. He also knows that even with his omniscience and omnipotence that he cannot measure (predict) with certainty the position of an electron in an atom. Believe it or not this follows and does not contradict his powers. You see he created the Atom as it is precisely so he could have something to bet on with other gods.

pokervintage

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Well, if god is omnipotent isn't it a given that he already knows everything that _can_ happen and also has the power to change it? </font>

Omnipotence is all-powerful. Omniscience is all-knowing. So no, that doesn't follow.

If God knows whether or not Sam will be hit by a bus tomorrow, then He is powerless to change it. Hence, it cannot be omnipotent.

If God has the ability to stop Sam from being bit by a bus (or to cause a bus to hit Sam), then He could not have known what was going to happen before hand. Hence, He is not all-knowing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably more to the point that he lets these things happen because it doesn't matter from his point of view. It's a very long view but he can always construct a paradise or hell for Sam depending on his character.

Omnibenevolence? Sure, it's a plausible concept but man is not benevolent as a matter of regard. It seems logical that such a powerful being would be all these things, but not necessary.

Having the power to change something is redundant. Let everything happen anyway and tinker with the results and solutions later. It's also worthwhile to bear in mind such a being would have a non-linear view of time and can go back and forth at will.

But that's just idle speculation. I don't believe such a being cannot be known, it's just human thought and nature limits how easily some concepts can be grasped. And it's very difficult to explain.

Why believers just shrug and place their faith in God, I suppose. It's too complex. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Omnibenevolence? Sure, it's a plausible concept but man is not benevolent as a matter of regard. It seems logical that such a powerful being would be all these things, but not necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

If man is not benevolent, then the actions of men aren't necessarily benevolent and some sucker ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) will suffer from it. Any god that allows that, would have to be doubted as benevolent itself.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Omnibenevolence? Sure, it's a plausible concept but man is not benevolent as a matter of regard. It seems logical that such a powerful being would be all these things, but not necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

If man is not benevolent, then the actions of men aren't necessarily benevolent and some sucker ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) will suffer from it. Any god that allows that, would have to be doubted as benevolent itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right in a linear view. But if he understands he doesn't need to be benevolent but to let the natural laws of man arise and observe. It's a matter of perception, I suppose.

When I said it wasn't necessary, I meant he doesn't have to be completely omnibenevolent, and that there would be ample room for him to correct things. Then again I tend to think human perception of time as linear and cause and effect are fundamentally incorrect. Which allows me to speculate a scenario in where everything can happen but that there are limits to everything.

As for what or who imposes those limits, consider that a human mind can only take so much pain and suffering before it shuts down. Proof that there is a natural law there too perhaps? Nobody human can take on an infinite amount of pain and suffering.

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right in a linear view. But if he understands he doesn't need to be benevolent but to let the natural laws of man arise and observe. It's a matter of perception, I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the perception of the victim is not relevant to a tyrant!

Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right in a linear view. But if he understands he doesn't need to be benevolent but to let the natural laws of man arise and observe. It's a matter of perception, I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the perception of the victim is not relevant to a tyrant!

[/ QUOTE ]

Tyranny and dispassion are two different things.