1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

This particular hand occurred tonight at the Taj's 1-2 NL and I was wondering if I could get some insight on how the hand should have been played and if my decision on the river was correct. Thanks ahead of time and I apologize for the lack of hand converter usage.

1-2 NL
Hero is UTG with about $430 in chips.
Villain is two spots from the cutoff with about $750 in chips.

The villain is a maniac and has been raising non stop and running very good. He's very good at making bets but does not know when he is beat and calls with mid pair or the lowest pair about 80% of the time to value bets made by his opponents.

Hero is dealt [QcQs]
Hero raises $10 to go.
Two people call and the Villain makes it $30 to go.
Hero calls and the other two fold.

Flop: [8s Td Js]
Hero checks.
Villain bets $50.
Hero calls.

Turn: [Ac]
Hero checks.
Villain bets $200.
Hero calls.

River: [7h]
Hero checks.
Villain goes all in.
Hero folds.

The villain ended up showing [7s 4c] for a bluff/pair on the river.

Ultimately I was hoping for a 9 or King on the river to clinch the hand but on the river when he went all in, I just couldn't call it even if I had about only $150 left. The Villain had been raising non stop with a huge range of hands so I put him on a 9 or possible two pair.

With about $150 left on the river, should I have called his all in bet? On a side note I played the hand as if I were on the spade flush draw and this might have caused him to go all in on the river when he knew I "missed" it. This was intended from the very start as I wanted to trap him but I didn't think he would make an all-in move after calling his $200 bet on the turn.

Once again thanks ahead of time. I can't go back and change the way I played pocket Queens, but I would like to know if folding on the river was the correct decision.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

#1 reraise pf

#2 if you call 200 on the turn, then you committed yourself and have to call on the river

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

Preflop:
- I'd probably raise more preflop (15ish) but this depends on your table a bit.
- Depending on the villain I'd consider 4-betting it preflop. It sounds like this guy isn't tight enough that his 3-bet could be lots of hands. Something like making it 80 or 90. If you get re-raised again its probably a fold. I hate playing Qs out of position so I think its ok to try and win it here.

Flop:
- As played I'd consider check/raising here. Since he's aggressive you know he's going to bet this flop almost always. I think making it 150 to go is perfect here. If you get called then you can re-evaluate, but given your description of villain I think you're good getting money in the pot.
- Notice how much easier this flop is if you'd raised preflop. He's a maniac so his preflop action doesn't mean he has a monster. Since you say he calls light you could probably push this flop and still be +EV.

Turn:
-Horrible card. As played I'd probably fold here. The A is the one card you really really didn't want to see. I think this is a really big mistake.

River:
- As played this is an easy call. You're getting almost 4:1 and villain isn't tight enough to fold getting these odds. I also think this is a really big mistake.


Also, you should post this in Full Ring under PL/NL Texas Hold'em. We need more live hands posted there. Plus you're likely to get good feedback from players better then me.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

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#1 reraise pf

#2 if you call 200 on the turn, then you committed yourself and have to call on the river

[/ QUOTE ]


That is exactly what I was going to say.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

CRAI on turn. The A is literally the best card in the deck because now you know he is full of it. If he has AK and hits the A he is more than likely checking behind the turn for pot control (look how scary that flop is!!!). The A is a standard scare card for the preflop raiser to rep when it comes on the turn but it almost always is a bluff.

Check-calling turn to induce a bet on the river as a trap is also ok if the board were dryer (say J52A on turn) but I like check-raising the turn on this board because:

1. The board is scary and you might legitimately be put in a tough spot on many rivers.

2. On the off chance he does have AK or 2 pair or something, you have 10 outs for maximum equity (two Q, four 9s, four kings). Paying off a river bet would be bad if he has these hands.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

Raise to $15 PF
4-Bet PF
Take control of the pot, on the flop, turn, river.

That guys line does seem pretty iffy, betting on all 3 streets, even when theres 4 to a straight on the board.


But all in all, as you played, I dont see how you fold the river.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

Thanks for the input guys. I really appreciate it. Looking back (knowing now what he had) I should have check raised all in on the turn or just fold on the turn.

But it's a lot easier going through the hand knowing what he had. If he didn't show what he had, I would have put him on a straight, two pair, or possible ace after the river bet.

At that point I honestly thought I was beat, and the only reason to call was due to amount put into the pot. I made the decision (arguably a bad lay down) to fold and move on and rebuild my stack.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

[ QUOTE ]
CRAI on turn. The A is literally the best card in the deck because now you know he is full of it. If he has AK and hits the A he is more than likely checking behind the turn for pot control (look how scary that flop is!!!). The A is a standard scare card for the preflop raiser to rep when it comes on the turn but it almost always is a bluff.


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I don't think villain is somebody that understands the term pot-control. Don't assume your opponents use the same strategy you do. If you CRAI you're investing $350 to win $400 in the hope your opponent doesn't have an A or another hand that beats you (set, two pair, straight). He's not folding any of those hands to an extra $150 raise, especially given the description of him. Villain is not going to be bluffing or calling with a worse hand often enough here to make this profitable.

CRAI is a horrible play in my mind.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

[ QUOTE ]
But it's a lot easier going through the hand knowing what he had. If he didn't show what he had, I would have put him on a straight, two pair, or possible ace after the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to improve your hand reading. Someone who puts his opponent on every possible made hand is never going to be making good decisions. For example, you can definitely rule out him having an Ace or two pair by the river.

Put yourself in his seat. Give yourself AK. Do you truly triple barrel on this board?

Now imagine he has two pair or even a set. You have played this hand like a draw. You might have busted spades but you equally might have a hand like T9s with middle pair and a straight draw. A busted flush draw isn't going to call the all-in but a straight certainly will. Do you really think he is going to push two pair/set there when it looks like you've made a straight?

In general, if the board keeps getting scarier yet your opponent keeps mashing the pot at you then his range is very polarised. It's either the nuts or a complete bluff. In this case, he needs a 9 to bet this river. Is a 9 consistent with his play? This will depend on your reads - e.g. does he semibluff every time he can or does he sometime take a free card on turn. In any case, a 9 is very rare here especially since he 3-bet preflop. So this is a bluff a lot of the time.

What does this mean? By the river, you shouldn't be thinking "man, I can't beat a straight, two pair, a set, an Ace, KK...". You should be thinking "he either has a straight or a air, is his play consistent with a straight". What you have barely matters. QQ here is about as good as AJ (and I'm sure you woulda called with top 2). If you think he has it, you fold QQ as quickly as you should fold AJ there, if you don't then you can call with midpair (though I wouldn't stretch it too much...calling with pocket 55s might be a stretch in case he's "bluffing" with a pair of tens or something lol)

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

Playing live 1/2, seems you should raise a bit more UTG. You do not want the whole table coming along and $10 will not fold enough suited A's. I probably would have reraised him but seeing the flop OOP is not so bad against this villian.

Got to, got to, got to, pop it on the flop. Board is very draw heavy. You want to take this down now or make him pay dearly to chase. Too many cards can put the scare in you OOP and also shut down villian when you are still ahead.

Bad call on the turn. Why are you calling this? If as you say your plan was to get it all in on the river regardless, then after the turn call you have to call river. Don't call off $200 and then get cold feet.

Tough hand.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

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But it's a lot easier going through the hand knowing what he had. If he didn't show what he had, I would have put him on a straight, two pair, or possible ace after the river bet.

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Try to improve your hand reading. Someone who puts his opponent on every possible made hand is never going to be making good decisions. For example, you can definitely rule out him having an Ace or two pair by the river.

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You don't play live much, do you? Ace or two pair would be very typical from a player like this.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

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Villain is not going to be bluffing or calling with a worse hand often enough here to make this profitable.

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I'm aware he's never calling with a worse hand. The thing is: HE'S NOT CALLING a lot of the time. and the times he does, we have outs (hence why it's better to get it in on turn when your equity is at its peak). and those odds you make them sound bad but 350 to win 400 is like excellent and so standard it's not like ur shoving 1000 on over a pot of 200.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

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Villain is not going to be bluffing or calling with a worse hand often enough here to make this profitable.

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I'm aware he's never calling with a worse hand. The thing is: HE'S NOT CALLING a lot of the time. and the times he does, we have outs (hence why it's better to get it in on turn when your equity is at its peak). and those odds you make them sound bad but 350 to win 400 is like excellent and so standard it's not like ur shoving 1000 on over a pot of 200.

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He'll be getting odds of almost 4 to 1, and OP describes him as someone that calls too much so I'm pretty sure he's almost never folding here unless he's on a pure bluff. After the way the action has progressed I'd be pretty confident we're beat here more than half the time we make this play. The times we're beat and he calls and we suck out are probably balanced out with the times he's beat (he has a lower pair, or a straight draw) and he sucks out.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

[grunch]

Check/raise the flop. Lead the turn. If he plays back at you, fold and wait for a better spot.

--klez

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

I do agree that you under-repped your hand so badly that you gave him the chance to outplay you. Especially out of position, you have to take the lead and keep it.

If I had to play, I'd bet/call preflop, and check/raise big on the flop. There's 180 in the pot counting the call part of your check/raise with about $380 behind...I'd make it $150 more (200 total) with the intention of not folding.

Don't be a passive player live, I see so many people in my games that are just check-call...check-call...they are capable of being perfectly good players, but just don't let themselves.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

You were definitely too passive.

You gave villain control of the pot and the hand.

All in after the flop was your correct move with scary board. Put villain to the decision.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But it's a lot easier going through the hand knowing what he had. If he didn't show what he had, I would have put him on a straight, two pair, or possible ace after the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to improve your hand reading. Someone who puts his opponent on every possible made hand is never going to be making good decisions. For example, you can definitely rule out him having an Ace or two pair by the river.

Put yourself in his seat. Give yourself AK. Do you truly triple barrel on this board?

Now imagine he has two pair or even a set. You have played this hand like a draw. You might have busted spades but you equally might have a hand like T9s with middle pair and a straight draw. A busted flush draw isn't going to call the all-in but a straight certainly will. Do you really think he is going to push two pair/set there when it looks like you've made a straight?

In general, if the board keeps getting scarier yet your opponent keeps mashing the pot at you then his range is very polarised. It's either the nuts or a complete bluff. In this case, he needs a 9 to bet this river. Is a 9 consistent with his play? This will depend on your reads - e.g. does he semibluff every time he can or does he sometime take a free card on turn. In any case, a 9 is very rare here especially since he 3-bet preflop. So this is a bluff a lot of the time.

What does this mean? By the river, you shouldn't be thinking "man, I can't beat a straight, two pair, a set, an Ace, KK...". You should be thinking "he either has a straight or a air, is his play consistent with a straight". What you have barely matters. QQ here is about as good as AJ (and I'm sure you woulda called with top 2). If you think he has it, you fold QQ as quickly as you should fold AJ there, if you don't then you can call with midpair (though I wouldn't stretch it too much...calling with pocket 55s might be a stretch in case he's "bluffing" with a pair of tens or something lol)

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Thank you for the very detailed response. He's been bluffing a lot and also getting lucky a lot (caught two pair with triple barrel bets with 38o three times). I put him on a 9 for a straight or A - although on the turn I was pretty sure that he did not have an A for reasons you and others have noted about the scary board and his over-sized bet.

I called the $200 bet knowing strongly that I was ahead until the river where I put him on a 9. I was hoping that by calling on the turn and checking on the river, that he would have no choice but to check on the river with me if he did not have a straight.

However due to what he had (74o), going all in was the only move for him if he wanted to push me out which he did.

As for hand reading, you'll have to trust me that it's almost impossible to put him on a hand. He's three bet several times with wide range of hands that were barely stronger than 27o.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

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As for hand reading, you'll have to trust me that it's almost impossible to put him on a hand. He's three bet several times with wide range of hands that were barely stronger than 27o.

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So in these situations you just tell yourself he's got a wide range of hands and jam when you're in a good spot. Preflop and the flop were the spots where you should have done that.

Never, (and I mean like 99.9% never), fold when playing live getting 4:1 because you've put someone on a specific hand. Live 1/2NL players are horrible, and you can't give them too much respect.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

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As for hand reading, you'll have to trust me that it's almost impossible to put him on a hand. He's three bet several times with wide range of hands that were barely stronger than 27o.

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This is where a lot of new players get tripped up too. Hand reading isn't about working out what your opponent HAS. It's working out what he doesn't have, or more precisely, what he can't possibly have yet is representing. Cool as it may be to put him on exactly 74, does it matter to your decision making if he in fact has 75, 27, K2? Of course not. His 'hand' is 'air' (which includes anything that isn't the straight) or the straight. The way he has played it there is virtually no in between. If he were hard to read, it wouldn't be because you couldn't put him on 74 precisely but rather because he could have a good mix of bluffs, weak hands, medium hands AND strong hands (the straight) in this very spot. However, few people can merge their range this well (I can't) so his range is indeed polarised and not particularly hard to read.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for hand reading, you'll have to trust me that it's almost impossible to put him on a hand. He's three bet several times with wide range of hands that were barely stronger than 27o.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where a lot of new players get tripped up too. Hand reading isn't about working out what your opponent HAS. It's working out what he doesn't have, or more precisely, what he can't possibly have yet is representing. Cool as it may be to put him on exactly 74, does it matter to your decision making if he in fact has 75, 27, K2? Of course not. His 'hand' is 'air' (which includes anything that isn't the straight) or the straight. The way he has played it there is virtually no in between. If he were hard to read, it wouldn't be because you couldn't put him on 74 precisely but rather because he could have a good mix of bluffs, weak hands, medium hands AND strong hands (the straight) in this very spot. However, few people can merge their range this well (I can't) so his range is indeed polarised and not particularly hard to read.

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Seriously, this isn't true. Live he could have almost anything and his range isn't particularly polarized.

Re: 1-2NL Hand At The Taj
 

As others said, 3 bet preflop, he's been full of crap before, so don't assume he's got the goods now.

Raise or check raise the flop, raise or fold the turn. If he doesn't have the A and you said your read was he doesn't then raise, that's a draw heavy board.

Call the river, only hand that makes sense is 99 or a bluff. You played so very passively that you begged for him to bluff at the pot, so pay off 99 and crush the bluff.

When someone has been 3 barrelling many times, don't give them credit for a hand just because of betting.