Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

Here’s a situation that occurred in a live no-limit game recently:

The board reads: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Turn 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

There’s some action before the river, but I’m not exactly sure how much. Two players left in the pot: UTG and MP. UTG checked subtlety either by tapping lightly or saying “check” lightly, MP then asked the dealer “he checked?” in such a fashion that the word “checked” was emphasized and heard loudly, but the word “he” was deemphasized and somewhat muffled. I, along with other people around him, could probably testify his words were inquisitive and not intended as action. However, the dealer, whose first language clearly isn’t English, believed MP only said “check” and then repeated “check”. Then UTG upon hearing the dealer quickly flipped up his hand to reveal K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but MP is now screaming bloody Mary and wants to bet now. Floor is called over. What is your ruling?

Garland

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

Was UTG in position to hear that it was a question? If not I would say it was a check as he took an action that was interpreted by the dealer as a check. We do have to consider the character of the players involved. That is if UTG is a known angle shooter that would flip over his hand knowing MP hasn't acted yet I might be inclined to let MP bet.

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

This exact situation happened to me. I opened a pot in early position to like $15 in a 1/2 NLHE game with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the BB called me. The flop came K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
He checked, I made a bet, he called. Turn came J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] . He checked again, I made a bet, he called again. The river was a Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] . I jump for joy making Kings full of Queens. I am awaiting my turn to take this guy to valuetown and never see him motion. However, everyone starts to look at me and I asked "Did he check?" The villian immediately flips over his K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

The floor got called (this is my first time ever needing to involve a floor) The dealer stated that he heard me mumble something before saying check, however he clearly heard check. I am flipping out because I want to bet my second nuts. After deliberating, the floor stated the villians action of checking would stand and that I could check, bet or fold.

I tossed out a tiny ass bet (smaller than the turn bet)because I figured by the way I acted he knew i had a monster. He insta called and then flipped out that I tried to angle him by saying to the floor "So I gotta show my hand now??" (in a pissed off tone).

The people sitting next to me heard me ask if he checked and agreed that the guy was just trying to angle me to get a cheap showdown. Also why the hell would I not bet Kings full in position. I am no Jennifer Tilly. It didn't work. I love the floor! [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

If you aren't sure of the action call "Time" and ask the dealer the question "What and/or where is the action?."

And make it a habit to never say bet or check in a game (they sound alike when it's noisy). Let your chips or clear hand tap do the talking.

~ Rick

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

This is a good example of why you should never use check, raise, bet, call, or fold in a sentence unless that's the action you intend to take. Why risk a bad decision when you don't have to?

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

"Did he check?" [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

"What did he do?" [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am flipping out because I want to bet my second nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Third nuts, arguably fourth (depending on how you count).

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am flipping out because I want to bet my second nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Third nuts, arguably fourth (depending on how you count).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you coun't retarded, 2nd. If you coun't stupid, 3rd. If you coun't like the rest of us, 4th.

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

Its a check.
This happens fairly often and i always remind the players...do not use the word check in any context other than checking, phrase it differently if you are unsure of what is happening.
What happened?
What did he do?
Is it on me?
Who is it on?

THAT said, i see players flip hands before the LTA has acted at all, that player always gets to act as he chooses, and i tell the others that is is best/safest to always wait until i/the dealer ask to see the hands.

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Was UTG in position to hear that it was a question? If not I would say it was a check as he took an action that was interpreted by the dealer as a check. We do have to consider the character of the players involved. That is if UTG is a known angle shooter that would flip over his hand knowing MP hasn't acted yet I might be inclined to let MP bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG was across the table form MP. Character for both players is neutral.

Garland

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good example of why you should never use check, raise, bet, call, or fold in a sentence unless that's the action you intend to take. Why risk a bad decision when you don't have to?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

lol nvermind!

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

A royal flush or straight flush beats him. The reason I would argue he has the third and not the fourth is that the of three hands that beat him (QQ, ATdd, T9dd), only two are possible (if someone has ATdd someone else cannot have T9dd).

Edit: I guess the clarification (between third and fourth) depends on whether you consider the nuts the best possible hand considering the board (out of ALL possible hands) or the best possible hand currently involved in the hand (terribly worded, I know, but hopefully understandable).

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

i said neverminddddddddddddddddddddddddd. I didn't realize the board flushed until I looked again.

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you coun't retarded, 2nd. If you coun't stupid, 3rd. If you coun't like the rest of us, 4th.

[/ QUOTE ]

Coun't is a contraction of what, exactly?

--klez

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you coun't retarded, 2nd. If you coun't stupid, 3rd. If you coun't like the rest of us, 4th.

[/ QUOTE ]

Coun't is a contraction of what, exactly?

--klez

[/ QUOTE ]

NICE, way to pick up on that typo. Damn. Consider a job as a writer, or proof reader for a major paper. I don't know about the rest of the forum, but you've managed to impress me.

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
The people sitting next to me heard me ask if he checked

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? You think THAT is good enough? You don't think you have an obligation to be heard by the dealer and your opponent?

You can't seriously think that "The people sitting next to me heard me," is good enough, can you?

generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

Dealer must be able to speak and understand english well enough to effectively run a game where "english only" is the friggin' rule. I'm not trying to be mean or discriminate against anyone, but the bottom line is that english is a requirement, not just preferable. If you're new to the usa: learn friggin' english or go home. Seems even the non-english speaking world (who also no nothing about poker) are ready to jump on the bandwagon. This means sit around and wait for tips even tho you can't do your friggin' job, but that's fine because management is a bunch of ignorant fools too so they don't know the dfference anyway and don't care either.

Management who hires dealers who cannot speak and understand english effectively are doing their room, their customers, and poker in general a huge disservice. I will go further with today's idiot poker management and say they are truly stupid and should be fired if they can't find decent staff (who can speak english) and train/motivate them to do a good job.

Now for the players. Schmuck #1 doesn't give a crap that his action was soft, vague, and anything but clear, he'll just do anything he can to not have to face a bet he doesn't want to call. There are soooooo many ignorant morons playing today, and so many ignorant idiots dealing to them and running the rooms they play in, that this kind of crap is seen as normal and ok. It's not.

Player #2 is equally to blame and receives an equal amount of sympathy from me - none. He gets what he deserves here if they don't let him bet.

So basically, the whole situation, as posted on this forum daily in multiplicity, is just a symptom of the universal ignorance, stupidity, and lack of pride or professionalism that plagues poker today, largely due to the biggest morons of all, television poker producers.

The only real justice would be to somehow force the one idiot to call but still disallow the other to bet, and force the dealer to dump their entire day's tips into the trashcan.

Everybody gets kicked in the nuts. Get with the friggin' program already or get the **** out of live cardrooms.

Al

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer must be able to speak and understand english well enough to effectively run a game where "english only" is the friggin' rule. I'm not trying to be mean or discriminate against anyone, but the bottom line is that english is a requirement, not just preferable. If you're new to the usa: learn friggin' english or go home. Seems even the non-english speaking world (who also no nothing about poker) are ready to jump on the bandwagon. This means sit around and wait for tips even tho you can't do your friggin' job, but that's fine because management is a bunch of ignorant fools too so they don't know the dfference anyway and don't care either.

Management who hires dealers who cannot speak and understand english effectively are doing their room, their customers, and poker in general a huge disservice. I will go further with today's idiot poker management and say they are truly stupid and should be fired if they can't find decent staff (who can speak english) and train/motivate them to do a good job.

Now for the players. Schmuck #1 doesn't give a crap that his action was soft, vague, and anything but clear, he'll just do anything he can to not have to face a bet he doesn't want to call. There are soooooo many ignorant morons playing today, and so many ignorant idiots dealing to them and running the rooms they play in, that this kind of crap is seen as normal and ok. It's not.

Player #2 is equally to blame and receives an equal amount of sympathy from me - none. He gets what he deserves here if they don't let him bet.

So basically, the whole situation, as posted on this forum daily in multiplicity, is just a symptom of the universal ignorance, stupidity, and lack of pride or professionalism that plagues poker today, largely due to the biggest morons of all, television poker producers.

The only real justice would be to somehow force the one idiot to call but still disallow the other to bet, and force the dealer to dump their entire day's tips into the trashcan.

Everybody gets kicked in the nuts. Get with the friggin' program already or get the **** out of live cardrooms.

Al

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with the dealers having to be fluent in English. They know English well enough to run the game, and well enough to have basic conversation. They can count the pot, deal and know the rules just like any native English speaking dealer. If the problem is much deeper, then the Floor has to come in. And yes, the Floor had better be able to speak English fluently.

I will agree they have to speak basic English, count properly (not confuse 15 for 50 for example [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ), but I don't think the requirements need to be as stringent as you make it seem.

And by the way, now that's two dealers of mine you've kicked in the nuts who were female.

Garland

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer must be able to speak and understand english well enough to effectively run a game

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to disagree with the dealers having to be fluent in English. They know English well enough to run the game

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dealer must be able to speak and understand english well enough to effectively run a game

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to disagree with the dealers having to be fluent in English. They know English well enough to run the game

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, maybe I misread Al. But the dealer in question here clearly can communicate and understand English. I guess the point is the mistake could have easily been made by a native English speaking dealer as well.

Garland

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer must be able to speak and understand english well enough to effectively run a game where "english only" is the friggin' rule. I'm not trying to be mean or discriminate against anyone, but the bottom line is that english is a requirement, not just preferable. If you're new to the usa: learn friggin' english or go home. Seems even the non-english speaking world (who also no nothing about poker) are ready to jump on the bandwagon. This means sit around and wait for tips even tho you can't do your friggin' job, but that's fine because management is a bunch of ignorant fools too so they don't know the dfference anyway and don't care either.

Management who hires dealers who cannot speak and understand english effectively are doing their room, their customers, and poker in general a huge disservice. I will go further with today's idiot poker management and say they are truly stupid and should be fired if they can't find decent staff (who can speak english) and train/motivate them to do a good job.

Now for the players. Schmuck #1 doesn't give a crap that his action was soft, vague, and anything but clear, he'll just do anything he can to not have to face a bet he doesn't want to call. There are soooooo many ignorant morons playing today, and so many ignorant idiots dealing to them and running the rooms they play in, that this kind of crap is seen as normal and ok. It's not.

Player #2 is equally to blame and receives an equal amount of sympathy from me - none. He gets what he deserves here if they don't let him bet.

So basically, the whole situation, as posted on this forum daily in multiplicity, is just a symptom of the universal ignorance, stupidity, and lack of pride or professionalism that plagues poker today, largely due to the biggest morons of all, television poker producers.

The only real justice would be to somehow force the one idiot to call but still disallow the other to bet, and force the dealer to dump their entire day's tips into the trashcan.

Everybody gets kicked in the nuts. Get with the friggin' program already or get the **** out of live cardrooms.

Al

[/ QUOTE ]


Al instead of ranting about a dealer how about putting blame where it belongs

[ QUOTE ]
MP then asked the dealer “he checked?” in such a fashion that the word “checked” was emphasized and heard loudly, but the word “he” was deemphasized and somewhat muffled.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is it the dealers fault that the player is not speaking properly?

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

When I get ranty I don't discriminate on the basis of sex, race, creed, religion, stupid looks or how much wpt you watched last week. I kick 'em all in the nuts first, and sort 'em out later.

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

how could that KK ever be anything but the 4th nuts with the information we have? depending on how you count?? lol

also regarding the guy that said "coun't" was a typo.. it's not a typo if you make it 3 times in a row, either that or it's a remarkable low probability event.

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I get ranty I don't discriminate on the basis of sex, race, creed, religion, stupid looks or how much wpt you watched last week. I kick 'em all in the nuts first, and sort 'em out later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its time you cut caffeine out of your diet. Look the dealer didn't hear something because the player didbn't say it clearly. When i screw up I take my lumps, but if you kick me in the nuts for not hearing something I'm going to kick you back.

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look the dealer didn't hear something because the player didbn't say it clearly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree.

Anyway, good thread and follow up Garland.

If we want to make rules and rulings better we need to a de-emphasize the use of verbal actions.

Cardrooms are often noisy and people from all over the world play these days; misunderstandings of verbal declarations are not uncommon. In cases where verbal actions must be used the onus should be on the one making a verbal action to be clear.

~ Rick

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't sure of the action call "Time" and ask the dealer the question "What and/or where is the action?."

And make it a habit to never say bet or check in a game (they sound alike when it's noisy). Let your chips or clear hand tap do the talking.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]


And by the way, "all-in" should also never be used as a question, but I frequently get that. now we have a problem because you meant to ask if the other player was all-in, but what I heard was you announcing that you are all-in.

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the clarification (between third and fourth) depends on whether you consider the nuts the best possible hand considering the board (out of ALL possible hands) or the best possible hand currently involved in the hand (terribly worded, I know, but hopefully understandable).


[/ QUOTE ]

The nuts are defined by the board. That's it. When shown a board, the nuts, 2nd nuts, 3rd nuts, etc. can be determined. There is no issue about "well i had the such and such card, therefore the nuts is this".

Think about it. TV hand. We "see" four different players fold an ace preflop. On the end the board is K Q J T 2 (rainbow). One player is holding a 9 and bets. Should the announcer proclaim "Player X is betting the nuts."? Or better yet, a player with air bets and the player holding the 9 folds. Should the announcer declare "what a donkey, player X just folded the nuts."?

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess the clarification (between third and fourth) depends on whether you consider the nuts the best possible hand considering the board (out of ALL possible hands) or the best possible hand currently involved in the hand (terribly worded, I know, but hopefully understandable).


[/ QUOTE ]

The nuts are defined by the board. That's it. When shown a board, the nuts, 2nd nuts, 3rd nuts, etc. can be determined. There is no issue about "well i had the such and such card, therefore the nuts is this".

Think about it. TV hand. We "see" four different players fold an ace preflop. On the end the board is K Q J T 2 (rainbow). One player is holding a 9 and bets. Should the announcer proclaim "Player X is betting the nuts."? Or better yet, a player with air bets and the player holding the 9 folds. Should the announcer declare "what a donkey, player X just folded the nuts."?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand if the board reads 99884 and I hold 98 I would say that I had the nuts. Even though until you see my hand you would likely say the nuts was 99.

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand if the board reads 99884 and I hold 98 I would say that I had the nuts. Even though until you see my hand you would likely say the nuts was 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I have a weird passion for this issue.

NO! (and I rarely use exclaimation points).

"Unbeatable hand" is not synonymous with "nuts".

I know at some level it's simply an issue of semantics, but for some strange reason it bugs me.

The nuts are defined by the board, NOT by hole cards.

In the example of a 9 9 8 8 4 board any player holding a 98 would have an unbeatable hand. To say he has the "nuts" however is just false. The nuts on that hand of poker is 99.

The only argument that I could see where the board shouldn't 100% define the nuts would be where there was an exposed card or (an even stronger case) a boxed card during the deal.

Even then, I think a strong case can be made that nuts are, well, nuts. Look at any complete board, the nuts never change.

(Again, sorry for the rant, but I have some sort of condition that makes me really care about trivial things).

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

I'm curious how others feel about that. You say you don't count cards in your hand when determining the nuts. So if you have a hand that, by existing, makes another bigger hand impossible, do you think to yourself, "well, I have third nuts, but second best hand that's possible here..." etc etc? What's the shorthand for this, if not "second nuts"?

Thoughts and results...
 

Thoughts:

To me it was very, very apparent UTG did not want to face a river bet. I was also sure MP wasn't shooting an angle and had a legit hand.

Moral of story: Don't use key verbal binding words (all-in, check, bet etc.) when inquiring about action.

Results:

Floor upheld the check. MP showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and took it down.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Garland

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you coun't retarded, 2nd. If you coun't stupid, 3rd. If you coun't like the rest of us, 4th.

[/ QUOTE ]

Coun't is a contraction of what, exactly?

--klez

[/ QUOTE ]

NICE, way to pick up on that typo. Damn. Consider a job as a writer, or proof reader for a major paper. I don't know about the rest of the forum, but you've managed to impress me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was intended as a good natured poke in the ribs to someone who was referring to others as stupid and retarded. Sorry you didn't get it.

Perhaps I should have used a smiley?

--klez

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious how others feel about that. You say you don't count cards in your hand when determining the nuts. So if you have a hand that, by existing, makes another bigger hand impossible, do you think to yourself, "well, I have third nuts, but second best hand that's possible here..." etc etc? What's the shorthand for this, if not "second nuts"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The cards in your hand help deterine the NUTS. You use all available information to determine the NUTS (Best possible hand). If you hold the 98 in the earlier example you have the NUTS because no one could hold a better hand.
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

Well I've been kicked in the nuts plenty of times, so you may just hafta do what you gotta do. I've even had to kick myself in the nuts on occasion.

I don't hear well, and work in a very noisy room, which is why I confirm everything aloud, especially if I wasn't 100% clear on the matter. Doing this keeps these misunderstandings at my table from happening. It's a very rare day that the action at my table would get screwed up because of unclear action, and I almost never need to call for the floor for any reason.

If someone who speaks english as a second language would also confirm everything, it would go a long way towards making things run smoother.

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't hear well, and work in a very noisy room, which is why I confirm everything aloud, especially if I wasn't 100% clear on the matter. Doing this keeps these misunderstandings at my table from happening. It's a very rare day that the action at my table would get screwed up because of unclear action, and I almost never need to call for the floor for any reason.

If someone who speaks english as a second language would also confirm everything, it would go a long way towards making things run smoother.

[/ QUOTE ]


You mean maybe if he repeated what he thought the action was, then the player could object if that wasn't what he said?

[ QUOTE ]
However, the dealer, whose first language clearly isn’t English, believed MP only said “check” and then repeated “check”.

[/ QUOTE ]


Come on Al, now admit it. you were a little to quick with the kick to the nuts here, you know this dealer doesn't deserve it. But its okay, I'm all for kicking the player in the nuts.

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone who speaks english as a second language would also confirm everything, it would go a long way towards making things run smoother.

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine how this hand conversation goes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]:

Dealer indicates SB's turn to act.
SB: "Check"
Dealer: "Did you say check?"
SB: "Yes, check."
Dealer indicates BB's turn to act.
BB: "Check"
Dealer: "Did you say check?"
BB: "Yup, check"
Dealer indicates UTG's turn to act.
UTG: "Check"
Dealer: "Excuse, please. Is that check?"
UTG: "Yes, check"

Rinse and repeat...

Garland

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

There's a real easy way around all of this, to ensure you are never misunderstood.

State your action AND act. Say "check" while tapping the table. Say "bet" or "raise" while putting out chips. Say "pass" before you throw the cards in. Not only will this belt and suspenders approach greatly reduce the risk of you being misunderstood, it will help speed the game along. Everybody wins.

Re: generalized stupidity sends al_capone_junior on a rant
 

Great answer. Pass it around everywhere you go.

Give this man one "get out of getting kicked in the nuts free" card.

Al

Re: Dealer contributes to confusion... Floor please!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am flipping out because I want to bet my second nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Third nuts, arguably fourth (depending on how you count).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you coun't retarded, 2nd. If you coun't stupid, 3rd. If you coun't like the rest of us, 4th.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the third best hand possible at the table. It's the fourth best theoretical hand. I certainly wouldn't call that distinction "stupid", and calling it the third nuts is actually more practical, and thus probably more accurate in this case. For example, had there been 3 players in this hand rather than 2, then saying he had the 3rd nuts is actually more accurate.