5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

Villain is a rich guy that I have played a fair bit of lower stakes NL with. In that game he plays a losing loose aggressive style, especially when he is drinking. He is not noticeably inebriated when this hand took place. This is the first time I have played Omaha with him or in a bigger game than 2- 5, and so far he has played a tight and predictably. For instance he has mostly folded to my raises when he limps UTG and I pot in position, and I made a naked ace check-raise bluff when a flush-draw hit in a hand and he folded a medium flush face up. We had a brief conversation about Omaha strategy over a beer before the game began and he expressed his opinion that “you can never really bluff in Omaha.”

On to the hand. Effective stacks around 2100 dollars.

Villain raises UTG to 25, one call, I call on the button with Jc8c6d4d, both blinds call.

Flop: J 7 4 with two clubs: Checked to me, I bet 125, every one folds except villain who makes the call.

Turn: J : Villain leads for 300, what is my play?
I will post my actual turn and river action independently later.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

Call turn and bet or raise most rivers.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

I'd probably make it 1100 here. This hand looks more like a weak draw he made trips with than it does any kind of full house or pure bluff so flat-calling would be a mistake. He's usually got 7.5 to 9 outs with trips so making it 1100 gives him the wrong odds to call, and with only 1000 left in his stack, he may feel pot-committed enough on the river to make the call with AJ or if whatever draw he had on the flop gets there.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

Iggy, lets say he calls the 1100, are you calling a push on the river if a high card comes?

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

This is a very tough decision.

On one hand, he seems to always be betting with some sort of hand and doesn't think one can bluff. But he may not be betting with the nuts like when he bet earlier with the medium flush. He may just have an under full house or trip J.

I would prefer a call on the turn and on the river (assuming an 8 or J doesn't come off). Let him hang himself if he is behind and save money when you are behind.

If he checks the river, bet ~1/2 pot.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

If we call arent we leaving money on the table, since his most likely hand is trip jacks? Calling also makes our river decision tough on any high cards.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

definitely raise. By the description you're not likely to be behind here. He will often stack off here with worse and you can protect your hand against Jxxx. Raise to nearly the pot and stick the rest in on any river.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

So i raised to 850, probably too small. He called, the river was a 10 and he checked to me. my move? stacks were a bit over a 1000 if IRC.

My rational at the time for the turn raise sizing was I wanted to leave enough of a stack that I could fold if he pushed the river, since I really didnt expect him to turn his hand into a bluff if he missed.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

Surprisingly many players are not capable of c-raising the river. If he is this kind of a (typical) player, then shove. He might call with 444JJ, 666JJ or AJXX. If you know he is good, then you check behind, because often good players play connedted hands and T connects to J very well, so he might have rivered the top full.

But, if you have played as much as you describe with him, then you should know the answer to the river c-raise question and you action should depend 100% on that fact.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

The pot is about 2000 dollars so I have around half a PSB. If I bet, I am never folding.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

Shoveski all-inski. Turn is a definite raise. This guy sounds p1ss-easy to play against

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

Do you think he checks the river OOP with a better hand than yours for 1/2 effective PSB left in stack. I don't think so(except for perhaps a weird slowplayed J7, but unlikely). Stick it in, yo!

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

In a live game, you should have some kind of a read to help you with the river decision, but from your description of villain as a rich guy who's likely to play a little passive, I think you can fold to a river push unless something in his body language gives you reason to call. If it were an online game, I'd call any river but an ace under the rationale that he wouldn't try to bluff but may decide to value-bet the river with ace-high trips once he realized he was committed.

As played, with 1100 left and 2100 in the pot, I'd probably bet 850 since that's what you bet on the turn and it may look just reluctant enough to get a call from trips where a shove wouldn't.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

It's important to bet here not only because you need to for value (which you do, I think) but also because if you're checking behind in this spot then he's going to know in the future that your bets on paired boards are only going to be top boat etc. You are almost certainly ahead, and giving people free showdowns is bad business.


I think it's not impossible for him to have an underset here, people will often play them super passively in live games. Is this in Tunica?

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

So I ended up checking behind due to a tell he gave off when the ten came, where he looked at his chips quickly and then shook his and and checked to me. I had seen him do this weird false tell thing everytime his draw came in so I decided to check behind. I think in a vacuum or in the internet this is an easy push on the river, but I had to go with my gut live. I probably should have included this read earlier, but I thought it might muddle up the analysis I would get because the value of live reads and tells in a particular spot is hard to quantify and balance against the conventional strategy if you are not there to witness their occurrence.

His small preflop raise also gave me pause on the river, since if he had a jack, I presumed that a ten would be one of his most likely side cards since his small preflop raise indicated a hand he wanted to play multiway like a run down hand.

He had QJ108 suited at least one way. He knew I was aggro and had a decent hand so his river check was intended to be a trap. Even though I lost the minimum here, this hand has still been bugging me because I feel like I may have misplayed the turn and left myself with too much money on the river which would have been an autobet if I had raised the pot on the 4th street and committed myself there. Since this guy is so easy to play against however, I thought at the time I would leave myself one more decision after the turn because I was fairly likely to be able to correctly determine whether or not to put the money in there.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

I made the mistake of reading the answer before I posted, which was a shame. Delay a 'lil next time. I think most of the advice you had sucked. In a live game, you are almost never ahead on the turn and similarly on the river. Especially against that kinda tight passive guy. Most live players are suckers for the grizzley bluff but find it almost impossible to pass trips. Strange but true.

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

I think in general, villain would have bet the flop with top two pair or 7-7, in which case your full house on the turn is almost certainly winning. So unless you have a reason to think your opponent might have J-7, then you should pot the turn. Otherwise, you might call the turn and probably fold to another decent-sized bet on the river.

On the river, I would check behind irregardless of tells. He is probably not going to call a bet unless he can beat you (lest you think he is bad enough to call with bare trips), and if he has a full house it is probably better than yours.

Jeff

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

Sorry, misread hand again. Put my posts on ignore [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

dd

Re: 5/10 Live; Deep- What is my most viable line?
 

i like the way OP played the hand (especially a sick river check). in these spots i love to just call the turn and extract max value on the river(we are IP vs a rich donkey who has a hand he obviously likes). i think a bet/fold line on the river would be tough, but realistic. id probably have gone broke in this hand. excellent example of losing the minimum.