Slowplayed Kings
 

I'm not understanding villain's betting at all here. Seem s to me that he made a donk move waiting til the turn to bet his hand. Does he not put me on anything?

First of all, I'm new to the table and have no read on anyone. So, I pick up AJ and raise 3x BB. Villain calls (no problem, he wants to slowplay the KK. Flop comes he checks, I bet, he calls. On the turn, he bets 900. Why? Why wouldn't he continue the slowply and check here, hoping I'd go all-in? Now, if he's worried about a flush draw, he sure ain't acting like it. Seems to me that he has to consider whether or not I'm playing AQ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and if so, then I have draws to the nut flush and straight. I'm perplexed here. Would anyone have played this any different? Surely I can't fold at this point since I feel I'm pot committed. I'm sure there's something wrong with my thinking, I'd be happy to hear.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG (t8075)
Hero (t1735)
MP1 (t3325)
MP2 (t1085)
MP3 (t1395)
CO (t1170)
Button (t1250)
SB =#A500AF(villain)/ (t2830)
BB (t1560)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jh.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ad.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to t300</font>, 5 folds, SB =#A500AF(villain)/ calls t250, BB calls t200.

Flop: (t900) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/td.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3s.gif (3 players)
villain checks, BB checks, Hero bets t450, villain calls t450, BB folds.

Turn: (t1800) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jd.gif (2 players)
villain bets t900, Hero raises to t985, villain calls t85.

River: (t3770) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/kd.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t3770

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
villain has Ks Kh (three of a kind, kings).
Hero has Jh Ad (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: villain wins t3770. </font>

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

pst, no need to put results in white if you give away villains hand up top [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


Villains a donk, you want him to be this retarded with his KK b/c he's losing tonsss of value playing it as horribly as he did.

w/ kings, i would have rr pf, shot another one on the flop, and see how you react...

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

tks for the tip on the whited out results, jerelock.

I think he played it badly after the flop, too, though I'm not sure his slowplay was so bad PF. Is there anyway I could have gotten away from this hand, though. I was way under the leading stack, which at the time, I think, was about $30K (a 4000+ player tournament), with perhaps a $2000 average. I put him on AJ as well and thought we'd split the pot. No way did I place him on an overpair due to his style. Was his play really that bad? He did get all of my chips in. But then, how does he know he's not facing AA, TT, TJ or AQs ([img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). Seems there were everal hands that could have beat him.

Guys, I apologize if my question is not worded well. I'm a bit tilted after that one. Went out in 2025th.

BTW: this was a 10FPP for $500 cash prizes, if that helps.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

There is a tendency for players to assume that any play they would not have made must be wrong, a sign of poor play. This is true even when they see the actions of a stronger player. I'm not saying that the villain here was necessarily a stronger player, but you should keep an open mind. Ask how you can exploit the play if you disagree with it. Here, it doesn't look like much value was lost postflop.

I disagree with the villain's play preflop. I think a reraise was in order, to get more value from a hand like TT before the flop brings overcards, or a hand like AQ before it misses. However, if he believes you will make a continuation bet, then just calling might get the most money in.

The flop was pretty dry, and was 3-way. It was reasonable to call instead of check-raising if it might cause incorrect overcalls from the big blind, or if it might get more value from a hand like QJ catching a pair than it would cost to let a hand like AT draw to a few outs.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, if he's worried about a flush draw, he sure ain't acting like it.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is incorrect.

On the turn, there are many possible straight and flush draws that are clear underdogs to KK, and will not pay off on the river after missing. The right play against a draw is to bet out, rather than to check and let the draw take a free card.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

By calling preflop he gets the BB to come along, he could be putting you on a position raise and not want to fold you out if he thinks if he calls you will fire a Cbet. Sure he gives another player a chance to outdraw him but being KK hes already really strong. If BB decided to make a raise over both of you hes going to put his stack in preflop so hes not worried about that, its just an additional couple hundred chips in the pot.

On the flop its a rainbow flop, no real draws out there so nothing to be afraid of unless someone hit a set or 2 pair, in which case him leading or checking not goin to matter, if he bets and someone raises AI he'd call. By checking hes hoping the BB bets or you fire a Cbet, he could then raise and maybe push you out, by why raise when hes still probably ahead.

The turn cards could give you a multitude of draws, either straight or flush draws, he wants you to commit with you whatever you have or your draw for the last card. The entire time he has masked the strength of his hand. Sure he risks the chance someone has outflopped him but he probably decided that unless an A came out he was putting his entire stack in by the end of the hand regardless of what came out, maybe even if an A did show.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

Though it would be tough to get away from think about what he could (should) be calling with when you raise from UTG+1. He'd probably call with any PP, maybe suited highcards 10/J+. To call an UTG+1 cbet he had to have hit or already held something, ie hit his set of 10s, 3, 6s, this board would be all nonethreatning to him as if he loses set over set then its goin to happen. Or he slowplayed QQ/JJ/KK/AA to try and get you to put your money in the pot and let you betting. Some would also cold call this flop with AK hoping to hit another card for draw, an A, or a K.

Calling your UTG+1 raise, Cbet, then pushing into you on the turn should set off lots of alarms. Most of the time I dont advocate slowplaying big PPs but as of late if its goin to a flop with 2-3 people for sure I sometimes will if the pots already raised to mask my hand and try to get more value, sure sometimes it backfires, but so can re-raising preflop and getting minimal chips for you KK.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

ya

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

[ QUOTE ]
Though it would be tough to get away from think about what he could (should) be calling with when you raise from UTG+1 ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't think I thought about it for long. My only thinking was that I had only $985 left and I figured him for AJ and we'd split the pot. His slowplay, for me, was very effective. I don't blame him at all. I think he did well in slowplaying cause I put him on either AJ with me or a bluff. I had absolutely no read on anyone since I was just coming to the table.

Thanks for the comments.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

I didn't read any replies, so this might have been said already...if so then just ignore.

But honestly, in your position (UTG+1), i like a fold pf, theres too much action to take place behind you still. AJo is not that strong of a hand at a full table with 8 people left to act behind you.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

I think Treefarms answer is right on the money here. I would like to add some additional thoughts. I think this must have been a multi-table tourny. In the early stages of a tourny, lets define that as 80% of field remaining or more (not sure exactly where you were) there are so many players that will call all in with top pair, any top pair that the implied odds are often very good for this kind of slow play. I like that you pushed the hand on the flop but after he called you, you should presume he has a hand worth calling with. I think I would have folded on the turn bet here (at least I hope I would have). Remember, a pair isn't really much of a hand if it's only Jacks. He told you he had a hand when he called you preflop and the second time when he called on the flop, then he reinforces that by betting the turn. You didn't get the message and lost it all on the river. Some other things to think about, when you first arrive at a table you need to be a quick study on how people are playing. You don't have any info other than the chip stacks really. At first, I'd give the players over average chip stacks credit and presume they were reasonable players until I've seen some of thier hands and actions and then adjust my view from there. I think your play is spot on perfect against the smaller stacks but against the larger stack you were taking a larger risk, not because of the large chip amount but the greater likelyhood this guy isn't a donk if he's above average chips. Incidentally, after the first 20% threshold passes I think conventional play predominates for some time. Were I in your villians spot, I'd probably have made the same call thinking at most I'd play may kings against 2 players. With the kings, After about 20% of the players have been eliminated (or if the worsed of the calling stations were off my table by now) I would have reraised preflop when the action hit me the minimum. I want to play this kind of made hand for a nice size pot. Let me tell you about most of the players early in a tourny, once they've raised, they can't resist calling a min raise, they'll do it almost every stinking time. You'd have called or moved all in and in all likelyhood the same chain of events would have occured. Remember, when a player can't wait to get all his chips in the pot, there is often a very good reason. Especially if that player is not short stacked. This guy had about 18x the blinds so he was in fine shape. He does not need to risk bluffing off a huge % of his chips here. Expecially to a new player he knows nothing about yet. Give a man credit for being able to play until he shows you otherwise.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

GeeBee, thanks for the input and I get where you're coming from. This tournament was a 10FPP $500 cash Freeroll, with 4000+ players. It seems that the 2+2ers are of the opinion that these freerolls aren't worth the time and effort. I don't know. Also, the majority opinion, at least what I have read so far, is that you should probably push with any 2 cards early, because playing rock tight usually leads to being blinded out with the blinds increasing every 5 minutes. So, I thought at this spot, it was a fairly good thing to make a standard raise and c-bet. This guy, for all I knew, was a donk who would call all the way to the river and then fold to a bet. Of course, his bet on the turn told me that he hit his Jack, so perhaps he also had AJ. I don't know what to think here. I do take your advise to heart, and am sure it has merit, but in these types of tournaments, I find it rather difficult to get away from AJ when I'm sitting with my starting amount and I see that others already have 10-20 times that amount, which, I guess, is another subject. How the hell is it that within 2-3 hands of one of these tournaments someone, on another table, has a chip stack of 15-20K? This would seem to me that the player is going all in several times, and getting called by the whole table, which loses to him. This happens everytime, it seems, and it makes me have paranoid thoughts of cheating.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

I don't understand how one player can be so damn lucky as to beat 10 other players in the first couple of hands.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

[ QUOTE ]
but in these types of tournaments, I find it rather difficult to get away from AJ when I'm sitting with my starting amount and I see that others already have 10-20 times that amount, which, I guess, is another subject. How the hell is it that within 2-3 hands of one of these tournaments someone, on another table, has a chip stack of 15-20K? This would seem to me that the player is going all in several times, and getting called by the whole table, which loses to him. This happens everytime, it seems, and it makes me have paranoid thoughts of cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am by no means an expert of MTT, but especially in freerolls, you do see people push with any 2 paint to build that massive stack you see. 9 times out of 10 they are not at the final table. Perhaps they look to win big early and then sit out their way into the money. Remember they have nothing invested so might as well push that KQo and see what happens.

What you are doing wrong I think is looking at those results. The only thing you can worry about is your table, nothing else. Don’t even look. Try to win your table and you get to the final. Average chip stack would be my only measure and you were right there. NO need to go broke with TPTK, especially OOP. People love 10, J remember and that is what I would put villain on here without reads. Which by the way you said you did not have reads but in one response you mention something about his “style”. If you have no reads, play assuming he knows what he is doing until proven otherwise as someone said already.

By George I made it ...
 

LOL ... this was done by playing rock tight until I picked up some decent cards, which I did early on. Thankfully, I started out on the button.

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars Tournament #65465847, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: 10 FPP
4980 players
$500.00 added to the prize pool by PokerStars.com
Total Prize Pool: $500.00
Tournament started - 2007/11/10 - 12:40:00 (ET)

Dear HERO,

You finished the tournament in 659th place.
A $0.15 award [WOO HOO!!] has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 24.06 tournament leader points in this tournament.
For information about our tournament leader board, see our web site at
http://www.pokerstars.com/tlb_tournament_rankings.html


Congratulations!
Thank you for participating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but in these types of tournaments, I find it rather difficult to get away from AJ when I'm sitting with my starting amount and I see that others already have 10-20 times that amount, which, I guess, is another subject. How the hell is it that within 2-3 hands of one of these tournaments someone, on another table, has a chip stack of 15-20K? This would seem to me that the player is going all in several times, and getting called by the whole table, which loses to him. This happens everytime, it seems, and it makes me have paranoid thoughts of cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am by no means an expert of MTT, but especially in freerolls, you do see people push with any 2 paint to build that massive stack you see. 9 times out of 10 they are not at the final table. Perhaps they look to win big early and then sit out their way into the money. Remember they have nothing invested so might as well push that KQo and see what happens.

What you are doing wrong I think is looking at those results. The only thing you can worry about is your table, nothing else. Don’t even look. Try to win your table and you get to the final. Average chip stack would be my only measure and you were right there. NO need to go broke with TPTK, especially OOP. People love 10, J remember and that is what I would put villain on here without reads. Which by the way you said you did not have reads but in one response you mention something about his “style”. If you have no reads, play assuming he knows what he is doing until proven otherwise as someone said already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Johnny: Thanks for the critique. It helped tremendously to not worry about who has the damn chip lead. I just hit my STATS tab and worried about nothing but my current table. Thanks so much, a much needed ego check.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

Better keep those fpp and when you have 70fpp play those 1-table satellites to sunday hundred grand. If you win, you can unregister and you get 11 Tournament $, which you can either change or invest in small sngs where you should make more of it.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

[ QUOTE ]
Better keep those fpp and when you have 70fpp play those 1-table satellites to sunday hundred grand. If you win, you can unregister and you get 11 Tournament $, which you can either change or invest in small sngs where you should make more of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm.. interesting; thanks.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

Learn to get away from AJ. You need to hit two pair with this hand or hit a J high flop to dance very aggressively with it. And you can't feel all that great about it with a J high flop. It's a good hand to limp in with (honestly I do from any pos) unless lots of flops are being raised. To get very aggresive with it post flop when you hit the ace you need to be against a player that plays every ace he's delt, then you figure to have a better kicker most of the time. Otherwise your probably still waiting to improve before you can feel too good about it. In tourny's it's a great hand to move in with when your first in and short stacked obviously. With lots of chips in a tourny or cash game I'm pretty much just value betting this hand when I hit one of my cards. Learn to move this hand down the list. I'd rather see a flop with 9T,89,78,67 suited most of the time. It's easy to dump, you make a big hand or go away.

Dave

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

[ QUOTE ]
But honestly, in your position (UTG+1), i like a fold pf,

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I, esp with no information on the other players.

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't read any replies, so this might have been said already...if so then just ignore.

But honestly, in your position (UTG+1), i like a fold pf, theres too much action to take place behind you still. AJo is not that strong of a hand at a full table with 8 people left to act behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

really?!?! you must tend to catch better cards than me,
typically. because, honestly, most tourneys I'm in, this
would be one of the top %5 hands i'm ever dealt.

A9o -- fold definitely... but AJo? other thoughts?

Re: Slowplayed Kings
 

Trying to get you to catch something, so that you'll pay him off, while disguising his SB hand.