AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

You must let go of that poisonous combination of fear and hubris that makes you think that you are about to do something special with AK by folding preflop.

You are not a world class surgeon with the cards. You cannot dissect AK any further. You will not find a theoretical breakthrough for folding AK in a small stakes, non-satelite online tourney almost ever. Numerous Small Stakes tourney theoreticians have tried before. In fact, about one tries every day. It always fails. It fails as hard as communism or Coke Zero. Except, communism always makes for a better read.

You are not a magician. If you fold AK, your online chips will not transpose themselves from the computer screen to your desk moments later and unravel like flowers in bloom, only to reveal sheaths of gold.

You have AK with an M of 8 - ??. There's a push in front of you with an M of 10. There's another call with M of 15. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]. It's late. It's early. Your dreams of making a final table are only one and a half hours away. And there's a break coming up! It's a +EV play to push here. That's all it is. +EV. That's what poker is: EV moves. Deal with it.

You're pyschology or greater wants mean nothing. All that matters in the end is the "long run" promise of cEV. Chips only translate to more potential returns if you play them correctly. Please think about this.

Barry

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

Clearly this post warrants a response.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

It's your not you're.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

All I have to say is

[ QUOTE ]
You must let go of that poisonous combination of fear and hubris that makes you think that you are about to do something special with AK by folding preflop.

You are not a world class surgeon with the cards. You cannot dissect AK any further. You will not find a theoretical breakthrough for folding AK in a small stakes, non-satelite online tourney almost ever. Numerous Small Stakes tourney theoreticians have tried before. In fact, about one tries every day. It always fails. It fails as hard as communism or Coke Zero. Except, communism always makes for a better read.

You are not a magician. If you fold AK, your online chips will not transpose themselves from the computer screen to your desk moments later and unravel like flowers in bloom, only to reveal sheaths of gold.

You have AK with an M of 8 - ??. There's a push in front of you with an M of 10. There's another call with M of 15. . It's late. It's early. You're dreams of making a final table are only one and a half hours away. And there's a break coming up! It's a +EV play to push here. That's all it is. +EV. That's what poker is: EV moves. Deal with it.

You're pyschology or greater wants mean nothing. All that matters in the end is the "long run" promise of cEV. Chips only translate to more potential returns if you play them correctly. Please think about this.

Barry


[/ QUOTE ]

LDO

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

But AK is a drawing hand.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's your not you're.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're OK with other spelling/grammar, etc.?

Barry: It is frustrating, I agree; I want to start a
beginner's thread within this forum so we can nail
the basics down in a less chaotic way.

I am in awe of all the "I entered a $200 MTT, should I
limp AA here?" I wish I had a ponderous bankroll to
learn from like that!

Deep breath, and let's concentrate on the threads that
merit intelligent debate.

-ZEN

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

I just don't think someone should have a condescending tone while getting basic grammar wrong.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

AK has six outs, a pocket pair only has two, so it's pretty obvious which is better.

Seriously, I almost folded AK PF deep in the 50K gtd. on Sunday. But I didn't and lost a flip for the top 3 in chips with 20 left (QQ>33>AK). But I didn't fold it and retrospectively, I am glad I didn't b/c I am very sure I made the right call and had I won that flip finishing in the top 3 would have been all but inevitable.

Sherman

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

but Barry...my AK keeps losing to A 2 off...can you help me?

lol...I agree with Barry in principal but I need to do some serious animal sacrifices lately to make the correct play profitable

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't think someone should have a condescending tone while getting basic grammar wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of creative writing forums on the internet where you may (but probably won't) find posts free of "spelling demon" errors.

Yes, there is a bit of condescension in this post, but "tough love" is well warranted. SSMTT is soaked with "hit n run" posts about what to do with AK late; each post wreaks of results orientated drivel or play based on psychological fear or illogical, mathematically void analysis. So, yeah, a basic, mostly psychologically orientated post saying "IT'S AKo/AKs, YOU WANT THIS HAND ALL-IN PRE" is necessary.

There are myriad posts that, while not AK orientated, are still based strictly on pyschological fear. Hands where one's basic comprehension dictates that AJ, 1010, JJ, AQ, or 99 in LP warrants an all-in with ~10 - 15BB. And yet, there are also players who will wait MONTHS OR YEARS before finally taking the "plunge" with a hand that good players see as early christmas gifts during mid to late stages in warrants.

I will also add that the most influential posts that I've read which at least make me feel like a major player in most tournaments are the ones that are tough and a little condescending. We are not training to be high school teachers here. We are training to make a killing for $. All you AK posters need to get this straight if you plan on dedicating hours of your time to playing poker.

In turn, excuse the condescension. I don't know who you are, Johnny, but I'd rather have a little kick in the ass with a "spelling demon" error than a grammatical correction without anything poker related to add.

This post is not meant for the regulars. btw. But maybe if someone new reads this today, he will be one step ahead of the game.


Barry

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

I was just being a nit because I feel like you are being a bit of one. I agree with your post, but am not so sure that a post like this will have many positive consequences.

If anything, it might scare people off from making posts that they think may be perceived as stupid, yet they are still in the dark when it comes to the answer.

I'm just not sure if that's what this forum is for.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have AK with an M of 8 - ??. There's a push in front of you with an M of 10. There's another call with M of 15. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]. It's late. It's early.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just started reading the MTT Strategy Forum so obv I've not seen the weight of these post that appear to be frustrating you. However I think you'd be better off getting more to the point and less cute. As penned I'm a bit confused, you are trying to clubber folks with a bombstick for folding AK?
Well if that's the case the above example leaves me cold, it's late, it's early... OK whatever... but you are most likely behind the guy that's got an M of 15 and folding here will not send you to hell.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have AK with an M of 8 - ??. There's a push in front of you with an M of 10. There's another call with M of 15. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]. It's late. It's early.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just started reading the MTT Strategy Forum so obv I've not seen the weight of these post that appear to be frustrating you. However I think you'd be better off getting more to the point and less cute. As penned I'm a bit confused, you are trying to clubber folks with a bombstick for folding AK?
Well if that's the case the above example leaves me cold, it's late, it's early... OK whatever... but you are most likely behind the guy that's got an M of 15 and folding here will not send you to hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol @ being most likely behind the flat caller.

"behind" with overlay is fine as long as you're not bitched.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol @ being most likely behind the flat caller.

"behind" with overlay is fine as long as you're not bitched.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be nice, or he'll "clubber you with a bombstick" [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

-ZEN

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]

lol @ being most likely behind the flat caller.

"behind" with overlay is fine as long as you're not bitched.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I understand that, but my point was a call that would send you to hell. There are degree of good and bad...
or gooddr or badder if you prefer..

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I will also add that the most influential posts that I've read which at least make me feel like a major player in most tournaments are the ones that are tough and a little condescending.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear god yes. If I post a hand that is so poorly misplayed that you question how I possibly have the intelligence to dress myself in the morning, much less play winning poker, I'd like to know that. "You probably should have folded that, friend" will not have the same impact as "There is no way you can ever win a poker tournament playing like this you massive donkey. PS what site do you play on so i can come destroy you and take your money"

There's no need to be rude, necessarily, but if you want to get better you have to take some heat to get the point sometimes.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't think someone should have a condescending tone while getting basic grammar wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on - this is an international forum and with many posters (just like me), whose native language isn't english.
If grammar is that important for you I suggest you post here in the future:

http://www.englishforums.com/English...ns/Forum12.htm

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

Barry...the reason you see a lot of these AK threads is because once a player makes the transition from level 1 donk to level 2 early stage thinker, it throws everything he thinks he knew about poker in the air. His is relearning how to play and AK is one of those hands that confuse people the most.

AK feels so good but it's not yet a made hand and you typically have to put a lot at stake with it. This is the first stage to understanding what it really means to play +EV.

I see someone who asks questions about AK as someone who is becoming a better player but is not quite there yet. They understand they have to take risks based on return. AK is the gateway.

I believe Soulman or Clayton made a post about this last year where he wrote about the stages of development a 2+2 poster goes through. It was a great read but I can't find it now.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

lol @ being most likely behind the flat caller.

"behind" with overlay is fine as long as you're not bitched.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I understand that, but my point was a call that would send you to hell. There are degree of good and bad...
or gooddr or badder if you prefer..

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I'm not trying to get cute. This is a post dealing primarily with pscyhology and how it can deter you from not seeing viable +EV moves. I mean, to all newbs or relatively nascent posters, how are you going to see +EV moves with marginal or relatively strong hands if you are questioning what to do with AKo with an M of 8 - 20? Because, I can promise you that players who go deep regularly and who are getting their $s worth in MTTs see plays like this as the tip of an iceberg of moves they make.

Let me put it for you this way - I probably cost myself hundreds of buyins in expected value in MTTs making heroic folds with AK or QQ earlier on when playing. Looking at poker in terms of EV now, I feel like I wasted countless hours of my time in terms of $.

Some players will fold AK here because it's "early" and they'd rather "push" rather than call into a lot of heat. Others will fold "late" because, as it is "late," the key is to survive to the final table. Or because they don't want to waste 3.5 hours of their time making a bad call down.

I'm sure there are rare examples where you should fold AK preflop against heat. I mean, ok, so you are at 6000 chips with 30/60 and the action goes raise, three bet, four bet all in from UTG to MP2, well, that's not a bad time to fold AK. That should cause an alarm. But, the default should be that you're going to get it in, you're going to take the +EV move, and you're going to pick up a big stack and optimize it depending on what table you're at.

If you aren't willing to suffer some pain after losing with AK in a tournament, you are in a lot of trouble.

Anyway, this post wasn't meant to create a galla of critiques on tone and grammar. I guess next time I do an OP like this, I will stick to rote analysis based on an objective tone.

Barry

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, this post wasn't meant to create a galla of critiques on tone and grammar. I guess next time I do an OP like this, I will stick to rote analysis based on an objective tone.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

You lost me in the original post; however the follow up helps me understand the context. Agree 100% if you are not willing to die you'll never do very well in poker, from a psychology point of view I often think folks have separation anxiety from their entry fees. They rather creep into the money short stacked and earn 20% on their entry fee as opposed to playing optimally.

Barry, thanks for the post, great job... sorry if I gave you hard time...

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

Barry your posts have helped me a lot and I do not mind the condescending overtones because I realize I have a lot to learn so please keep up the colorful responses. A serious question I am interested your opinion on with something that came up a couple nights ago in a $12 180 Turbo that seemed like an easy call but what would you do here:

1st hand of Tournament you are on the button with AKo, you have a push and two calls in front of you and as the first hand you have no reads at all, all opponents are unknowns. With 3 players all in you are getting a hair over 3-1 to call, is this ALWAYS a +ev call or is there any argument for folding.

I called and would the next 100 times confromted in this situation but caught some flack from some solid players I know that said they would have folded there this early in the tourney against 3 unknown players that pushed in front. My response was I only have to win this hand one out of three times to be even and any more than that would show a profit so it is a +ev move.

Your take?

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

So two nights ago I sit in a $6/18 on Stars. Very first hand, I'm dealt AcKc in EP and raise to 60. Folds to button who pushes 1500.

Well, with what hands do donks reraise-push on the first hand of a tournament? It's almost always TT, JJ, or AK. I rarely see AQ do this. Sometimes AA/KK will do this at low buy-in tourneys because they expect somebody to call.

So if you can limit the range to TT/JJ/AK (letting the odd circumstances where it's AA/KK or something like KQ cancel each other out), AKs is only 48% to win vs that range. I'd have to call 1440 to win 1590, which means I'd need to win 47.5% of the time to make it correct... as close to EV neutral as you're gonna get.

So if you wanted to make an argument for folding AK in this situation (especially unsuited), I'd listen.

But whatever -- ZOMG I had AKs soI snapcalled. I flopped a K and beat his JJ.

Oh, and you can yell at me for having a range that narrow, but cmon, we all know it's gonna be TT/JJ/AK there. And if you add lower pairs to the mix, it only minimally changes your equity.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
...caught some flack from some solid players I know that said they would have folded there this early in the tourney against 3 unknown players that pushed in front. My response was I only have to win this hand one out of four times

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

This is such a rare, rare situation in online tournaments. You will only see this, IMO, once every several hundred tournaments. It happened to me yesterday when I had AA - I was up against Q10, AK, and AK.

In this spot, nairb, it's probably incorrect to call, IMO. I understand that some people think their AK situations are "rare," like if it's late or mid-game with two pushes in front and everyone at the table is around M 10 to 20. But, those situations are not nearly as rare as this one.

The reason is WHY your AK is no good here - it's not only because you are always going to see KK v. AA v. QQ. It's because chances are at least one of your As or Ks are not outs. You are probably, in fact, splitting with AK a good percent of the time. Still, if it was only one push and one caller, you've got to call.

Barry

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is such a rare, rare situation in online tournaments. You will only see this, IMO, once every several hundred tournaments. It happened to me yesterday when I had AA - I was up against Q10, AK, and AK.

In this spot, nairb, it's probably incorrect to call, IMO. I understand that some people think their AK situations are "rare," like if it's late or mid-game with two pushes in front and everyone at the table is around M 10 to 20. But, those situations are not nearly as rare as this one.

The reason is WHY your AK is no good here - it's not only because you are always going to see KK v. AA v. QQ. It's because chances are at least one of your As or Ks are not outs. You are probably, in fact, splitting with AK a good percent of the time. Still, if it was only one push and one caller, you've got to call.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

It is rare but are you surprised that I was up against AQo,77, and KJ and spiked an A on the flop to quadruple up. As I have moved from my initial $50 deposit starting with the $1 2-5 table MTT SNGs and building through the 3.25s and 6.50s to be rolled now for the 12-16 range I am still somewhat surprised that the play in the $12s and $16s is only a small bit better than the 3.25s.

I am sure there is a level where I could find a fold in this situation but it sure is not in the =<$16 buy ins.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

No - actually, this is going to sound really stupid, but once I realized it was 4:1, I was going to change my response a little bit. Work called. Guh - work.

Barry

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

poker > work

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
poker > work

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[censored] this I happen to like Coke Zero

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

BARRY....

CHERRY COKE ZERO IS THE TIIIITTTTS.....

DON'T KNOCK IT TIL U TRY IT.

(i hate AK but i always go down in flames w/ it) just the other day in a tourney on stars... a spewtard redonked my overpot raise w/ K8o out of pos... i had AKdiamonds... flop top top... and he shoves... i was salivating and instacalled. he spiked 2 pair on the turn.

i still am a fan of the theory that it's hand patterns like a slot machine online where the pattern is decided the second the hand is picked.... not random numbers.... and that you learn to not overplay hands like AK.

i'm still tryin to figure it out, and i agree with the post that you have to play it the same every time... cuz i have folded it in the small blind with a raise 4 callers and the BB to act behind me... and oddly enough... high card AK would have won.... and i was sooooo mad that time cuz it was a 6 up and i folded PF.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
i still am a fan of the theory that it's hand patterns like a slot machine online where the pattern is decided the second the hand is picked.... not random numbers.... and that you learn to not overplay hands like AK.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is funny. I loled and almost peed a little.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol...I agree with Barry in principal but I need to do some serious animal sacrifices lately to make the correct play profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

COUNT ME IN... I'LL GO ROUND UP THE SEAGULLS FROM THE SHORES OF LAKE ERIE... OR DO U THINK WE NEED SOMETHING BIGGER LIKE A COUGAR?

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

This thread has gotten completely out of control.

First of all, you're right, Coke Zero isn't that bad. I should have referred to Pepsi Clear. Pepsi Clear was easily the most atrocious cola derivative ever.

Secondly, it is true, online poker is rigged. It's rigged toward cool SNs. Namesake is everything. I mean, seriously, do you think "The Waco Kid" is not going to prosper even if he does totally [censored] suck? Or "Muckthenuts?" C'mon...

However, if your SN sucks, then you need to get it in with AK even more so than the rest, because otherwise you will blind out with terrible hands or suffer a slower, more painful death.

I need to email fulltilt...

Barry

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thread has gotten completely out of control.

First of all, you're right, Coke Zero isn't that bad. I should have referred to Pepsi Clear. Pepsi Clear was easily the most atrocious cola derivative ever.

Secondly, it is true, online poker is rigged. It's rigged toward cool SNs. Namesake is everything. I mean, seriously, do you think "The Waco Kid" is not going to prosper even if he does totally [censored] suck? Or "Muckthenuts?" C'mon...

However, if your SN sucks, then you need to get it in with AK even more so than the rest, because otherwise you will blind out with terrible hands or suffer a slower, more painful death.

I need to email fulltilt...

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh.

I have nothing to add except that if this thread could stay on the front page for awhile I would feel better.

Barry- I agree with the whole concept FWIW.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

And Pepsi Lite with the lemon tast is far worse than any other soda ever made.

lol

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

Glad to know people ignored the excellent poker advise from Barry but focussed on grammatical errors and his "surly" attitude. Like this site is a (Censored) Emily Post blog spot.

By the way Fresca is the worst soda ever....and it's not even close.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just don't think someone should have a condescending tone while getting basic grammar wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on - this is an international forum and with many posters (just like me), whose native language isn't english.
If grammar is that important for you I suggest you post here in the future:

http://www.englishforums.com/English...ns/Forum12.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Glad to know people ignored the excellent poker advise from Barry but focussed on grammatical errors and his "surly" attitude. Like this site is a (Censored) Emily Post blog spot.

By the way Fresca is the worst soda ever....and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, who's being nittier? Me or you two?

I've already explained that I was being a nit to Barry because I feel like he is being a nit in some ways.

But you guys aren't even adding anything to the thread (which I have), you're just trying to be slick about my sarcastic grammar policing.

And if you don't think that getting sarcastic replies or being subliminally condescended in threads isn't discouraging to new members, then you're wrong.

Re: AK Post: I\'m posting this as new because I\'m tired of it
 

Unless you are looking at 2+ raises in front of you, AK is the nuts all the time no matter what in a turbo on stars. The sooner you accept it the happier you will be.