preflop raise?
 

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Omaha/8 (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

just want my preflop play confirmed. this is a spot where you raise to get a big pot with such a nice starting hand right?

Re: preflop raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
just want my preflop play confirmed. this is a spot where you raise to get a big pot with such a nice starting hand right?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - I wouldn't, but whatever. I don't think the raise is necessarily terrible. I just think pre-flop raising or not depends more on the effect you think your action will have on your opponents than on the cards you hold yourself.

Everyone is obviously going to play that very strong, very fine, starting hand. But sometimes you do better if you don't try to set the hook too soon. Jerk it and the fish may get away. Depends.

Some people will always raise, almost gleefully, with that hand. Perhaps amazingly, you only make low with that hand about half the time.

Buzz

Re: preflop raise?
 

assuming you dont raise with this starting hand. is there any hand you'd raise with in this spot?

Re: preflop raise?
 

I think, after reading lo, these many Posts by Buzz, that if you're going to raise PF you want to do it with many hands, not just the strong ones. And sometimes ust limp the strong ones.

Doing it that way increases your opponents Marginal Propensity to Call Your Raises Later (Pcyrl) and you get paid really well when you make a hand.

Of course, it also increases your opponents Marginal Propensity to Play Back At You (Ppbay) when they see you raise PF and fold Post, but that's life in the fast lane.

There's an inflection point somewhere where your curves for raise/limp % vs number of opponents (for your pulling and pushing hands) intersect, I think if you shape those curves right and play at that point you'll maximize your profits.

Regards,

Gar

Re: preflop raise?
 

Gar - I really like the acronyms or whatever they are called.

Reminds me of this guy.

http://www.dailyreckoning.com/Writers/MogamboGuru.html

Re: preflop raise?
 

Olrik - due to your hand, position, and # of limpers, I play it the same as you.

Re: preflop raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just want my preflop play confirmed. this is a spot where you raise to get a big pot with such a nice starting hand right?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - I wouldn't, but whatever. I don't think the raise is necessarily terrible. I just think pre-flop raising or not depends more on the effect you think your action will have on your opponents than on the cards you hold yourself.

Everyone is obviously going to play that very strong, very fine, starting hand. But sometimes you do better if you don't try to set the hook too soon. Jerk it and the fish may get away. Depends.

Some people will always raise, almost gleefully, with that hand. Perhaps amazingly, you only make low with that hand about half the time.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

When you make the low the pot is going to be 4x's bigger on the flop though, due to raising preflop. With 4 limpers I raise every time.

Re: preflop raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's an inflection point somewhere where your curves for raise/limp % vs number of opponents (for your pulling and pushing hands) intersect, I think if you shape those curves right and play at that point you'll maximize your profits.


[/ QUOTE ]Hi Gar - That's very good. I like it.

A problem is all opponents do not play the same. In a public casino game, people come and go during the course of a playing session, so that there is a constant change, more with some opponents than others, in the table dynamics.

If Charlie Milktoast is yet to act and if I think he will get out of my way with 2-3-Y-Z or A-3-Y-Z, then I'll raise with A-3-Y-Z or A-4-Y-Z, and maybe with some other hands that might make you wonder about my sanity. But with the same hand, I'm not going to raise if Gambling Gus, who loves a lot of action when he holds 2-3-Y-Z or A-3-Y-Z, is in the game.

I'll raise with A-2-3-4 against some groups of opponents and not against others. It's hard to be specific because there are many various factors that influence the decision, including how some other hands have recently been played and where people are sitting relative to me and each other.

As soon as you recognize that some starting hands are better than others, you start ordering the hands, ranking some above others, wondering what the premium ones are - and it's a natural progression to think that the better the hand, the more you want to get more of your money in the pot. I think that's a logical way for some, if not most, intelligent people to think as they evolve into better poker players.

A-2-3-4 with a suited ace is a premium hand. A-4-5-6-rainbow is marginal at best. Against some groups of opponents with a special target opponent, I'll raise with both of these. Against others I'll raise with the first hand but not the second. Against still others I'll raise with the second hand but not the first. Against still others, I won't raise with either.

How I play any hand also depends on how I have played similar hands and other hands. There is a guy who caught me raising with a marginal starting hand once. He declared (with some disdain), "Nobody bluffs in Omaha." Since then he has called every single time I have raised, not only before the flop, but any time. And, of course, I own him. But when we're both in the same hand, there may be other opponents to also consider.

I realize this is all very vague.

My point is: Raises are opponent and opponent group specific for me.

I believe I can raise or not with almost every hand I'll voluntarily play.

Buzz

[ QUOTE ]
I think, after reading lo, these many Posts by Buzz, that if you're going to raise PF you want to do it with many hands, not just the strong ones. And sometimes ust limp the strong ones.

Doing it that way increases your opponents Marginal Propensity to Call Your Raises Later (Pcyrl) and you get paid really well when you make a hand.

Of course, it also increases your opponents Marginal Propensity to Play Back At You (Ppbay) when they see you raise PF and fold Post, but that's life in the fast lane.

[/ QUOTE ]That's good too.

Re: preflop raise?
 

Wouldn't raising more often vs the guy calling with 23 and A3 be more profitable then? Since you're going to have the best of him many times.

Re: preflop raise?
 

Hi ProDonkey - Slotboom suggests a way of playing a short stack in pot-limit Omaha-high that, though irritating and probably game destroying, makes sense, at least in terms of selfishly getting what you can out of the table. Probably works for Omaha-8 too.

It's a simple strategy and you don't really need much skill to extract a profit from the game. Just learn what good starting hands are, get all your money in on the first betting round and let the law of averages take care of itself. I think it probably works fine for on-line play where you're multi-tabling six tables at once. Drop out of any game when you've collected a profit and after a few minutes (or whatever) but back into that same table for the minimum, so that you'll be short-stacked again.

I play one table at a time in a casino. (I've never even seen a ring game of pot-limit Omaha-8 in a casino, although I guess they crop up from time to time).

There are people who make their livings (such as they are) playing in my games. It seems a poor life choice to me, but anyone who even ekes out a living playing poker in a casino is not stupid and the short-stacked strategy would simply not work in my games. For one thing, you have to play enough hands to beat the rake, For another, when you play ultra-tight you don't get any action when you do play a hand. My games are relatively low stakes, but many of my opponents are rather good poker players, probably better than me.

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't raising more often vs the guy calling with 23 and A3 be more profitable then? Since you're going to have the best of him many times.

[/ QUOTE ]I think it depends on your hand, on your other opponents, and on what you expect to accomplish in later betting rounds.

If you're playing skillfully, you want to maximize the amount of money going into the pot on all betting rounds when you will end up with a winning hand, not just the first betting round (unless you're short stacked and have a premium starting hand). And you want to minimize your investment when you will end up with a losing hand.

You've played the game. You know how things change going from before the flop to the flop, from the flop to the turn, and from the turn to the river. If you only jam with good starting hands, reasonably intelligent opponents know when you have a good starting hand - and they know when you probably have a good fit with the flop and when you don't.

There seem a lot of different strategies and tactics used successfully. Some very excellent players, indeed better players than I am, seem to advocate lots of pre-flop raising. And that evidently works well for them. But somehow it doesn't work well for me when I raise before the flop too often.

How often is too often? I don't know. I try to answer that question for myself every time I play. It seems to me the answer is different for different mixtures of opponents, and different at different times for the same mixture of opponents. I just kind of feel my way, hoping I'm sharp enough to cope at any particular time I'm playing.

Buzz

Re: preflop raise?
 

Well normally whether to raise a hand preflop or limp, fold.. I look at things from an equity perspective on that street. A234 has 35% equity in a 5 way pot vs random hands.. obviously all these people don't have random hands though.

Giving 1 A3, 1 23, one some high cards.. you're still at 28% equity in a 5 way pot. So any raise is still +ev.. I think an important consideration here is that a raise could also buy us the button, and possibly even get it checked to us on the next betting round.

Re: preflop raise?
 

Hi ProDonkey - Clearly A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is probably the best starting hand at the table and has a +e.v. before the flop. It's a premium hand!

Some people believe that's all there is to it.

Rightly or wrongly, at least in a fixed-limit Omaha-8 game against intelligent opponents who are trying to put you on cards in order to out-play you, whatever the stakes, I think there's more.

I like your line of play better in a Texas hold 'em game where fortunes do not change as much on the turn of each board card.

I also like your line of play better in a pot-limit game.

To each his own.

Buzz

Re: preflop raise?
 

so basicly you do advocate sacrifying a (significant?) preflop equity edge in order to maximize your postflop edge?

Re: preflop raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so basicly you do advocate sacrifying a (significant?) preflop equity edge in order to maximize your postflop edge?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - Exactly.

In a live limit game, unless you're playing idiots, you don't lose that much on the first round, and you easily gain it back on subsequent rounds when you actually do have an edge. (And when you don't, you lose less and can get out more easily). And that works better for me than raising on the first betting round whenever I have an edge. I think it depends a lot on your opponents.

There's more to it than just that.

There's also the deception factor in live games of seeming to be passive, because of play on the first betting round.

But if you follow my posts here, you'll see that I'm actually not passive at all - however it might seem that way to those who hastily jump to conclusions because of my generally rather passive play on that first betting round.

As an aside, I don't play Texas hold 'em that same way. However, I don't play Texas hold 'em much because Omaha-8 is simply a lot more interesting to me. When I do play Texas hold 'em or anything pot-limit, it's with a different emphasis on various poker principles.

But different strokes for different folks. Do whatever works for you and provides self satisfaction in your games.

Buzz

Re: preflop raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so basicly you do advocate sacrifying a (significant?) preflop equity edge in order to maximize your postflop edge?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - Exactly.

In a live limit game, unless you're playing idiots, you don't lose that much on the first round, and you easily gain it back on subsequent rounds when you actually do have an edge. (And when you don't, you lose less and can get out more easily). And that works better for me than raising on the first betting round whenever I have an edge. I think it depends a lot on your opponents.


[/ QUOTE ]

When you raise you do give additional information about your hand but the players calling the raise also give away information about there hands as well. You can also limit the information you give away by adding a small percentage of hands you would not normally raise given the specific conditions to the groups of hands you do raise. Not raising because you don’t want to give up information seems short sighted to me. I mean you only have 3 options. Call, raise or fold and you are giving up one of thoughs…

I don’t think you have to sacrifice your pre-flop edge to maximize your post-flop edge they are not mutually exclusive. There are many reasons to raise pre-flop for value, to limit the field, to raise the stakes… compared to one reason for not raising. I’d like to hear other opinions on this.



[ QUOTE ]

There's more to it than just that.

There's also the deception factor in live games of seeming to be passive, because of play on the first betting round.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is seeming to passive inherently better the seeming to aggressive? I’ve never played live O8…

Re: preflop raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising because you don’t want to give up information seems short sighted to me.

[/ QUOTE ]Short sighted???

[ QUOTE ]
the players calling the raise also give away information about there (sic) hands as well.

[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely. That's a principal reason to raise.

Dismas - Rightly or wrongly, on the first betting round, I raise or don't raise more because of the effect I think it will have on my opponents than because of whether I have a premium hand or not.

Playing in that fashion works for me and is a satisfying, interesting way for me to play. However, admittedly that style of play is more complex and more advanced than rote memorization of the premium hands and raising whenever you are dealt one, plus "adding a small percentage of hands you would not normally raise."

I assume you have read the entire thread, but if you have not, perhaps you are missing the overall picture.

However, do what works for you.

Buzz

Re: preflop raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some people believe that's all there is to it.

Rightly or wrongly, at least in a fixed-limit Omaha-8 game against intelligent opponents who are trying to put you on cards in order to out-play you, whatever the stakes, I think there's more.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

In a live limit game, unless you're playing idiots, you don't lose that much on the first round, and you easily gain it back on subsequent rounds when you actually do have an edge. (And when you don't, you lose less and can get out more easily). And that works better for me than raising on the first betting round whenever I have an edge. I think it depends a lot on your opponents.

There's more to it than just that.

There's also the deception factor in live games of seeming to be passive, because of play on the first betting round.


[/ QUOTE ]

The point I was not so eloquently trying to make was your raises should not define your hand. And there is room to value bet your hand pre-flop.

[ QUOTE ]

Dismas - Rightly or wrongly, on the first betting round, I raise or don't raise more because of the effect I think it will have on my opponents than because of whether I have a premium hand or not.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree you should always consider more then just your hand strength in deciding how to play your hand.


[ QUOTE ]

Playing in that fashion works for me and is a satisfying, interesting way for me to play. However, admittedly that style of play is more complex and more advanced than rote memorization of the premium hands and raising whenever you are dealt one, plus "adding a small percentage of hands you would not normally raise."


[/ QUOTE ]

I’m not smart enough to remember all the different premium hands by rote nor do I believe that is an optimum way to play O8…

Re: preflop raise?
 

Here's another analogy. (or maybe it's like a simile, whatever)

Poker actions are used to elicit a response from your opponents. If you know your opponents, you can predict how they will react to your action. you can use that knowledge to string several actions together that will lead to their downfall.

Just like in fencing or judo, you string togeter a series of passes designed to get your opponent more and more off-balance or out-of-line, so you can then defeat him simply and with minimal effort.

But you have to know your opponents and how they tend to react, and you can't look at one move in isolation and ask "is this the best move?"

You have to ask "how will Ed react if I raise here, and if he does that, will he be vulnerable to this next move, or that one, and if I do this and he does that, then when I do the next thing, will that give me the result I desire?"

You can bet, bet, bet with 5678 rainbow and win the hand. I wouldn't do that very often, but when I do, you can bet that people are going to call, call, call, the next time I bet, bet, bet with the best starting hand and the 2-way nuts on the river.

You can also think of poker like a river. You do something at one point and something else happens downstream. If you know enough about hydraulics, you'll know what to do at point A in order to get result 1 to happen at point B. It's just not always the same river.

Anyway, I have a meeting to go to.

Regards

Gar

Re: preflop raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The point I was not so eloquently trying to make was your raises should not define your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Dismas - You were eloquent enough. My immediate reaction to what you wrote in the quote was "But they do."

I think there are fundamental differences between playing on-line and playing in a live casino. Part of our seeing this differently is a result of the difference between B&amp;M casino and on-line play.

Of course I agree with you, that your raises should not define your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
And there is room to value bet your hand pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]Perhaps that is true in your games.

I could be wrong, but I believe it's not true in my games if my opponents see my pre-flop raises as value bets. And unless I focus on my own cards more and my opponents less, it's hard for me to bet so that they don't. For me, it's a question of how much emphasis do I want to give to my cards at the expense of the considering the effect my action will have on my opponents. It's very hard to verbalize and explain this - and that's frustrating to me. I don't think we're looking at it from the same perspective.

Even if my opponents call a pre-flop raise, at least some of them are smart enough to be alerted to the possibility of a value bet, and they play accordingly.

However, although it is true that in some games I rarely raise before the flop, if I have somehow given the impression that I never raise before the flop, that is incorrect.

And the raise has some relationship to the cards I actually hold. But it isn't, rightly or wrongly, dependent on how good my starting hand is.

Some people ask the dealer to show my cards if I muck them at the showdown after seeing I am beat. They obviously want to know how I am playing. And when my cards are shown, those who didn't ask crane their necks to see. At least some of my opponents are clearly focusing on how I am playing my cards. And indeed I focus on how my opponents are playing their cards.

Room for value betting? I don't know. Maybe there is. When an opponent raises, depending on the opponent and my cards, I probably call with a hand I was planning to play without the raise.

But the pre-flop raise is always in the back of my mind as I play the hand and try to put my opponent on cards. And you're right - the calls of other opponents are also in my mind as I try to put them on cards. Both the raises and the calls give information for all but the maniacs.

But if there is room for value betting before the flop for you in your games, then go ahead and value bet.

Buzz

Re: preflop raise?
 

"Some people ask the dealer to show my cards if I muck them at the showdown after seeing I am beat. They obviously want to know how I am playing. And when my cards are shown, those who didn't ask crane their necks to see. At least some of my opponents are clearly focusing on how I am playing my cards."

An unfortunate rule of poker.

I expect that if it were the 100s, duels would regularly be fougt at this poit.