Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

I've been thinking a lot of late about post flop play and the situations I find myself in. I keep reaching the same conclusion that passive play seems to work better than aggressive play in full ring games. Obviously if you have a strong draw and good FE you should bet/raise, etc and if you have a strong hand and a board that villain(s) may either have a piece of or a good draw on you should bet/raise accordingly.

I guess what I'm saying is that playing a sound made hand (usually a safe TPTK or two-pair+) or a strong draw aggressively is easy and standard.

However, most of the time in poker we have less than top-pair and I'm wondering if its often better to let people just bet their money off. Am I talking rubbish or anyone else agree. My turn play has become particularly passive as I seem to often check it because I have a nothing hand (i.e. my cbet was looked up (and nothing representable hit)) or because I have something and intend to check-call. This is reflected in my PT stats but yet another regulars seem to be quite aggressive on all 3 streets.

It also seems rare at FR that you'll get three streets of value from a lesser hand. For example, I raise AKo mid and find a caller in the blinds. Flop is K,9,6 rainbow and my c-bet is called. Turn 6. These are the sort of situations where I'm starting to lean towards giving a free card and then insta-calling the inevitable river bet. If it's not forthcoming then I'd expect anything up to a pot-sized bet to be called by the likes of KQ/KJ both of which would be unlikely to call 2/3rds pot on both the turn and then river.

I'm rambling a little. I don't have a coherent point really; sort of opening the floor on the subject.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

I'm not sure I understand "However, most of the time in poker we have less than top-pair and I'm wondering if its often better to let people just bet their money off."

How can calling with less than top pair be standard when they are betting their money off?

BTW - I'm going the other way. I've found some success with the preflop reraise then c-bet play a lot lately. I had 2 live sessions (total of 11hrs) where I was virtually card dead the whole time. I don't think I made better than 1 pair the whole time. It was amazing. BUT I won some pots by reraising light, then c-bet. Worked like a charm.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

I agree with that; there is defo merit in light 3-betting then c-betting at FR.

[ QUOTE ]
How can calling with less than top pair be standard when they are betting their money off?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it was standard. I'll make up a contrived example of what I'm thinking:

100bb effective, hero is in HJ with AdJs and raises first in. A middle of the road player calls (he knows basics but has weaknesses and plays too many hands).

The flop is Ks,Jh,7c and hero makes a standard continuation bet which villain calls.

Turn is a 6c and what is our play.

It's possibly villain has a weaker jack, two-pair+, Q10, Kx, etc. If we bet again he may call on the draw which will put us in a really tough spot on the river whether he hits it or not since we'll probably move into check-fold mode. He'll fold all hands we beat and maybe (if we are really lucky a few hands we don't (weak-kicker kings). If he was floating he'll fold.

The problem is that maintaining an aggressive line and betting again here doesn't seem to maximize our expectation. However, by going weak we allow him to bet off weaker hands (and believe me they are stupid enough to bet QJ and the likes here) and thus we get value from those weaker hands. The problem is that we also put ourselves in a reverse implied odds situation. An ace could be more harm than good and a jack might just ensure we get stacked. Crucially if villain does have a better hand he can take us to value town on the two remaining bets if we go into check-call mode.

So what is our play here? How do we maximize. It seems to me that betting the turn doesn't really achieve that but similarly check-calling one bet and potentially two is high variance and possible no better in the long run.

For a real example I had the exact sort of scenario against Narena (smart poker) today.

Multi-limp and I'm in BB with K10 and check. Flop K,J,rag and I fire pot. Narena calls. Turn J. A potential trouble card so I go into check-call. Narena bets about half pot and I call. River 10 and I check, he bets just over half (from memory) and I call and pay off AJ. This is the risk - he maximized because I went into check-call.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

It definitely helps to have villain-specific reads here (such as fold to cbet %) as well as an idea of what kinds of hands they'll call or raise with. Being in position with top pair, I find myself bet/folding unless I know will will pay off with 2nd pair or TPWK. I play 25NL and am still getting a handle on what the "default" villain will do, but without reads, I'm apt to play smaller pots (either checking behind on turn, or betting turn and checking river). This may be a leak though lol.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

In your example, I'd check/fold the turn after the second jack appeared unless the villian was a total spewtard.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

I think in a lot of cases position trumps aggression, and if you have a read, sometimes you just gotta go check/call instead of bet/fold.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

Villain is Smart Poker and made $24k last month at NL$200. So no. He's not a spewtard - however, he is pretty relentless in betting the turn if you give him any hint that you've lost interest in your hand.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

My winrate improved dramatically when I increased my AF by 50%. Take it fwiw.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

[ QUOTE ]
My winrate improved dramatically when I increased my AF by 50%. Take it fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]

In what way and what circumstances did you increase it. More c/r? More 2nd/3rd barrel? Raising more flops? Turns?

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

This is why you must pray to the Gods of position.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is why you must pray to the Gods of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst obviously it helps it doesn't change much. I'm rapidly become quite passive on the turn because I check behind with a lot of unimproved and marginal hands to either a) hopefully hit showdown value or, in the case of a marginal hand to b) show it down/induce bluff.

Assuming you raised preflop and have position and assuming villain limp called and is a total unknown whom you have no stats on. You have 1010 and flop is Ks,Js,5h and villain check-called and checked 3d turn. Who bets turn? Who checks turn? Who intends in either of the above actions to call a river bet or make a river bet?

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

FWIW my aggression factors are as follow (NL$200 FR)

PF: 1.45
Flop: 3.32
Turn: 1.86
River: 1.46
Total: 1.74

VPIP is about 16, PFR about 9 and Went to SD about 21% so it's not like I'm crazy lag and showing down many hands.

I'm still not fully comfortable with my game. Something is wrong post flop but I can't put my finger on it. My instincts are telling me to become more passive yet most good regulars are more aggressive on all streets than me it seems. I just don't know how they get away with it since I get called or re-raised when I start firing away willy nilly or bluffing more.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

[ QUOTE ]

For a real example I had the exact sort of scenario against Narena (smart poker) today.

Multi-limp and I'm in BB with K10 and check. Flop K,J,rag and I fire pot. Narena calls. Turn J. A potential trouble card so I go into check-call. Narena bets about half pot and I call. River 10 and I check, he bets just over half (from memory) and I call and pay off AJ. This is the risk - he maximized because I went into check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]


My flop call was more of a float with position here. I just got lucky that the turn brought a jack.

I think folding the turn is probably the best choice here- even though I still would have bet the turn even if I didn't improve (with you leading.)

Position is just so important and so playing passively OOP does have it's merits.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

I'm having a little bit of a hard time following what you're asking, but my impression is that you're saying aggression and giving examples of position and pot control with marginal hands.

I don't know how SABRE upped his aggression rate, but it may have come from a bunch of factors. Betting and raising more will increase your aggression factor. Check/folding more and cold calling less in position with marginal hands also increases your aggression factor. Making better choices in small pots OOP by folding shows up in your stats as being more aggressive. There is both a betting and folding component to aggression factor.

So to your examples, it probably isn't a particularly good idea to regularly fire multiple times OOP with second pair. You may be better off check/folding in those smaller pots as opposed to check/calling. Giving up in a small pot OOP is much better than creating a big pot and being faced with a tough decision later. Yes, you sometimes lay down the best hand, but that is the price of position. Build the rest of your game around putting other people on tough decisions in position and you will make that back. Sometimes you may want to check/call with a bluff happy fellow, but mostly you should refuse to play medium to big sized pots OOP with marginal hands. One thing you may want to look at is how you attack from position? Are you limping along on the button with drawing hands? Smooth calling your draws in position? Don't disrespect the button by limping with crappy suited connectors. Raise and attack from the high ground. Put other people to tough decisions with dicey second pair hands. Make them decide if they want to call a big bet on the end when their second pair is now third pair. Put them under your heel and grind.

When you have second pair like the TT hand, checking behind and inducing a bet or checking it down are perfectly reasonable choices. It isn't less aggressive because you aren't betting, it's using position to size the pot to the strength of your hand.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

Great post Stan!

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great post Stan!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it made this post worth reading. Thanks for the rescue of this thread.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

[ QUOTE ]
My winrate improved dramatically when I increased my AF by 50%. Take it fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here..

I think you are underestimating how much more $$ you'll win with sheer aggression.

and what stan said.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

Oh, threads back!

I'm aggressive as hell with the BTN. If facing a marginal decision between limping along and raising the CO/BTN to take control over the limpers I take the later route probably 75% of the time. But in poker you can't help but be OOP a fair proportion of the time. If I get AK or 1010 in an EP I'm still going to raise and chances are someone between me and the BTN will call.

Today I tried firing 2nd barrels a little more with mixed results. Sometimes villain would fold but often they would call down. No idea yet if it was a more successful strategy.

Mike, curious as to why you'd float me in an unraised pot multiway. There aren't many/any hands that I'd bet out multiway in an unraised pot and then shut up shop unless a very scary turn card came (such as this case). With a very weak king here I'd usually check/fold (reverse implied odds) and with the K10 I had I'd fire a second round if only called in one spot and the turn was safe.

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

[ QUOTE ]

Mike, curious as to why you'd float me in an unraised pot multiway. There aren't many/any hands that I'd bet out multiway in an unraised pot and then shut up shop unless a very scary turn card came (such as this case). With a very weak king here I'd usually check/fold (reverse implied odds) and with the K10 I had I'd fire a second round if only called in one spot and the turn was safe.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK- perhaps "loose call" would be a better description than a float!! (You know how it is playing so many tables- there's occasionally the odd dubious decision!) However, and I may be recalling this wrongly, but I thought the flop bet wasn't that strong- maybe 1/2 pot!?

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

OK, I found the hand.

It was only three way, so the flop call is fine I think. I couldn't tell you my exact thoughts at the time but I was probably thinking I could use position to win the hand even if I didn't improve. So it was probably a mixture of loose call/float/advanced thinking(!!) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

My limping w/AJo UTG+1 8-handed isn't text book; probably better to fold or raise- although it does mix my game up a little. (If you only limp here with small/mid pairs then a decent, observant player would never pay off your sets.)


Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

MP2: $29
CO: $110.80
BTN: $264.05
SB: $206.20
BB: $203
UTG: $235.10
Hero (UTG+1): $203
MP1: $286.15

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Hero calls $2, 2 folds, CO calls $2, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: ($7) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $5</font>, Hero calls $5, CO folds

Turn: ($17) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $10</font>, BB calls $10

River: ($37) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $20</font>, BB calls $20

Results: $77 Pot ($3 Rake)
BB mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Jacks) and LOST (-$37 NET)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Jacks) and WON $74 (+$37 NET)

Re: Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss
 

bb shoulda folded turn, DEF the riv