New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

Long time lurker. You all make the day go by much faster at work. Well now its my turn to share a story and maybe get some advice.

My sister has 3 boys ages 17, 15, and 12. She got into drugs and lost custody of her kids. They were in foster care while the courts decided who in our family could have them.

My wife and I really didn't want to do this we don't have kids and don't want kids, but I couldn't let them go to foster care. My younger sister has 3 kids of her own so she said she could take one but not all three. My mother couldn't get them because she believes in Spanking and told the Social worker that.

So My Wife and I get two of the the kids on June 26th 2006. The 12 and 17 year old. FYI this was suppose to be tempory (until there mother completed Drug rehab and counseling). There father wants nothing to do with them at all and hasn't since the youngest one was 2.

So The 12 year old has been nothing but trouble, but all little trouble, Not doing homework, fighting at school, not cleaning his room, always breaks things ( not on purpose) like my laptop, terrible grades. The older one does not get in any of those little problems. He does his homework, gets decent grades upper 70's low 80's. Does not skip school. He even played on the Highschool football team. But the first month he was with us we let him go to Buffalo for the weekend to visit friends he was staying at my younger sister's. He got arrested for throwing rocks in a major road with friends ( not little rocks either) We went through the whole you could have killed someone speech and everything. Almost a year later of no problems with him at all. He goes to buffalo again (which he had done many times over the year But this time he and his friends break into cars and steal stuff, gets arrested again! We let him spend 5 days in there before bailing him out to teach him a lesson. He is no longer allowed in Buffalo without us there.

Now Here is the issues, My sister was on here way to getting them back, she was doing great. Then a relapse, now she is back in rehab. My wife is going crazy and wants them out of our house. Even though I understand I find it way to hard to put them in foster care. My wife and I have now been arguging nonstop for a few weeks about this. We have both in counseling.

We have a court date on Dec. 14th. My mother is trying to petition for them again we will see how it goes. If they won't give them to her then I have a decision to make. Put my nephews in foster care or hope my wife will understand that I can't do that. ARGHHHHHH!!! What to do??? What to do???? Sorry for any typo's, Run on senteces, or missplled words. Typed this fast or didn't know how to spell it lol.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

You DON'T believe in spanking? You better start the faith.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

foster care

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

Wife >>>>> Nephews. Not even close.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

Wow. Tough spot. I know my wife would be exactly like your wife in this situation. How long till the 17 year old is 18? If it's only a few months then maybe stick it out and kick out to grandmom when he turns 18. It seems like the 12 year old would be manageable on his own.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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Wife >>>>> Nephews. Not even close.

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As cold-hearted as it sounds, I agree with this. Don't let these kids destroy your marriage. You have extended yourself overwhelmingly to accommodate them and they have hardly been appreciative. Very tough spot.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

eddie,

i work in the child welfare field and was just at an industry conference on friday. i attended a workshop about kinship care vs. regular foster care, and the relative success of each.

what you did for your sister's kids has helped them a great deal, even though they are struggling right now. statistically speaking, kids who are placed in kinship foster care have a much, much better chance of avoiding adverse behavioral outcomes and other problems down the line. what's more, kids who go into kinship care early on (i.e. don't have to wait in a regular foster home while a relative is petitioning for custody) have even better outcomes.

statistics don't really matter to an individual - what really matters to you is the outcome for your nephews and your sister. but i thought you might like to know this.

depending on the state you live in, you may be eligible for foster parent benefits that you aren't receiving. the kids are almost certainly eligible for some counseling, supportive services or other benefits. i don't know what you are receiving or what they're getting in the way of services, but look into this, and don't just take the word of somebody from the state office - they often fail to inform you of your rights or refer you to good services. if you're in NY state i may be able to help you locate further help.

it's normal for foster kids - even kids in kinship care - to struggle. it sounds like your nephews have some positive things going in their lives, some strengths to build on, etc.

one other thing to consider - if you place the kids in foster care, your family (and your sister) will probably never get them back. for the older two, it's less of an issue because they will be aging out anyway. federal law requires that states initiate a termination of parental rights any time a child has been in foster care for 15 of the last 22 months. you may be aware of this already, but i thought you might want to know anyway. this is a crucial time period in terms of custody of your nephews.

more details would help, feel free to post in the thread or PM me.

(disclaimer - IANAL etc, use information in this thread at your own discretion and risk, i am speaking not as a professional in the field but merely as a concerned 3rd party.)

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

You sound like a nice guy who cares about his family even though they may be a bunch of [censored] ups so I will give you some serious advice. Tell your wife to stop being so selfish, sometimes there are things in this world that are out of her control. This is one of those times. You have a responsibility to these children at this point and putting them back into foster care would be wrong and possibly/probably detrimental to their well being. I am actually surprised anyone could be married to a woman who is so selfish that she wants to put these children back into foster care. I also think children need to be slapped on occasion if they misbehave so they know there are consequences. What you should do is get your belt out and use it on the 17 years, the 12 year and your wife when necessary so everyone knows who the man in the house is. All problems solved.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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Wife >>>>> Nephews. Not even close.

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As cold-hearted as it sounds, I agree with this. Don't let these kids destroy your marriage. You have extended yourself overwhelmingly to accommodate them and they have hardly been appreciative. Very tough spot.

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developmentally speaking, these are adolescents dealing with a major trauma. based on what OP has told us so far, they have been a LOT more resilient than a lot of kids in foster care. i am not trying to minimize the difficulties OP and his wife are facing, but, unfortunately, in terms of how they stack up to the system on average, these kids are not doing too bad.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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I am actually surprised anyone could be married to a woman who is so selfish that she wants to put these children back into foster care. I also think children need to be slapped on occasion if they misbehave so they know there are consequences. What you should do is get your belt out and use it on the 17 years, the 12 year and your wife when necessary so everyone knows who the man in the house is. All problems solved.

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yeah, don't do this (as if it really needed to be said).

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

I wrote a bunch of crap about having serious man-to-man talks with your nephews, about long-term consequences, turning points, yadda yadda yadda. But I keep thinking about my 3-yo daughter lying dead in a ditch because some stupid kids thought it would be fun to throw rocks at cars, and now all I want to do is yell at you. WTF??? You let him go off by himself and he does something that could easily KILL SOMEONE, and the next time he wants to go you let him?

And I agree with the others; wife > nephews.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

Console yourself with the fact that if NT had any other job, you would be banned.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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so I will give you some serious advice...get your belt out and use it on the 17 years, the 12 year and your wife when necessary so everyone knows who the man in the house is.

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I've got 8 inches of seriousness for you. Bend over and let me show you who the man is....

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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You sound like a nice guy who cares about his family even though they may be a bunch of [censored] ups so I will give you some serious advice. Tell your wife to stop being so selfish, sometimes there are things in this world that are out of her control. This is one of those times. You have a responsibility to these children at this point and putting them back into foster care would be wrong and possibly/probably detrimental to their well being. I am actually surprised anyone could be married to a woman who is so selfish that she wants to put these children back into foster care. I also think children need to be slapped on occasion if they misbehave so they know there are consequences. What you should do is get your belt out and use it on the 17 years, the 12 year and your wife when necessary so everyone knows who the man in the house is. All problems solved.

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QFMFT

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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Console yourself with the fact that if NT had any other job, you would be banned.

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LOL

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

Wow! I didn't expect this kind of response so fast. I will try to respond to all responses.

Vyse, I was spanked growing up and it didn't hurt me at all in life. I didn't say I don't believe in it. What happned was the kids spoke with a law guardian who asked them about there grandmother (my mother) and they were like no way do we want to live with her she spanks us. And believe me you know it when you get spanked by her lol. But she does not beat you ( I think it's a huge differnce) The law guardian never asked us about spanking.

Paul B., Round Guy and Fast Food - I Hear what you are all saying this is a very unfair spot to put my wife in. I knew coming into the marriage that she didn't want kids. Even though I did I was and am able to deal with that. But to give up my nephews into fostercare is very tough and Im not sure how I would deal with it after the fact.

42 - The 17 year old just turned 17 on Sept. 24th. So it's another year.

NT - I am in NY, Rochester NY. Right now we do get medicad for them from the system and some cash for food and clothing. That part to me is not the issue though I don't need the money from the system (although I didn't realize how much two growing boys can eat and how fast they ruin there clothes lol). I have dealt with the "system" alot in the last 16 months and your right they do not seem to tell you everything.

I don't know I really don't want them to go to foster care. and I really don't want to lose my wife. I hope my Mother's petition will go through this time. The social work basically told us they are not worried about the 15 or 17 year old (basically for the same reasons you explained above). They really are concered for the 12 year old as he would then be placed in foster care alone.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

That's tough OP.

Do you think that putting the children in foster care, however much you might not like the idea, could help accelerate the mom's recovery from her drug habit?

I can't begin to account for her actions, but there is a bit of a safety blanket for her knowing that the children are in good hands regardless of whether she makes it through rehab, relapses, or whatever. With the children in state custody, that certainty is removed so it might help impel her to getting and staying clean.

No real advice, but despite your feelings I would suggest that you don't endanger your marriage because your sister can't stay sober to take care of her kids. However, that is your decision, and I can completely see your side.

On a side note, have the kids been to counseling?

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

The boys should be able to get behavioral therapy, counseling, supervised visits w/ Mom, all sorts of stuff that would almost certainly help to stabilize them. Caseworkers tend to be ridiculously overworked and undertrained (some of them are lousy but it's usually not their fault), but if you advocate for yourselves you can get access to a lot of help.

There are foster parent groups that meet to discuss these kinds of issues as well, share strategies, give mutual support, etc. Your wife might find this useful, or maybe not. Worth suggesting either way.

The boys are going to pick up on the tension between you and your wife, too. Kids are very perceptive about this kind of thing, even if they don't say anything or don't even seem to be aware of it.

Involve them in the decision. Talk to them about what the options are and what they would prefer. They may have said they don't want to go to grandma before, but now that they have been in care for a while and may be faced with going to a stranger, they may feel differently. Try to be prepared for court and have a first, second and third plan just in case. Make sure they know that you care about them and will be a resource for them no matter what happens, even if they have to go.

It's really important for your wife to hear how much you mean to her and that you understand her concerns. Over and over. And over. She is probably feeling trapped and overwhelmed. The worst thing, in that scenario, is not having anywhere you feel you can turn.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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I can't begin to account for her actions, but there is a bit of a safety blanket for her knowing that the children are in good hands regardless of whether she makes it through rehab, relapses, or whatever. With the children in state custody, that certainty is removed so it might help impel her to getting and staying clean.

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I just want to point out that, unfortunately, this isn't true. She is coming up on a deadline where the state is going to be required by law to initiate a termination of parental rights against her, if I read the dates in the OP correctly. It really doesn't matter what happens with rehab this time around, the foster care system is really [censored] up in this regard and she is out of time.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

Deuce - I understand your point but he got in trouble the first week he was with us. He was never in trouble before (not that I was around that often) He was staying over my sister's house ( not his mother) So I have no reason to think he would do this. After than he was not allowed in buffalo again for a long time. I was about 6 months later after consuling (which he still attends) Many talks with us about how stupid it was how someone could have been killed. After that we started letting him go again. He went about 6 months always checking in (with both my sister and Me) and he was fine. We thought he finally grew up and liked living with us so he wasn't out looking for trouble. It's not the way you make it sound. He got arrested June 30th and we let him go back to buffalo for the 4th of July. Again believe me I do understand where you are coming from I think what if it was My wife or another family memeber who was driving and some kid threw a rock in the road and they were killed.

Diddy - Yes I do believe that she uses us as a safety blanket. I didn't know and I don't think she is aware of what NT is saying about the Timeframe. I honestly don't know if that would help her though. Right now she seems really stuck in a rut and nothing seems to help her.

NT - you really do have alot of good advice I do appreciate it. I have had talks with both of my nephews. I have talked to them seperate and together. I explained how hard things are for all of us. I told them about the possibility of foster care or there grandmother and sometimes I think it goes in one ear and out the other. But who knows as you said kids can sense the tension even though they don't talk about it.

As far as some of the other comments up to this point. Some really make me laugh no matter how foolish they sound so go ahead and keep going. I knew I would get some of those responses on a public forum. Heck sometimes reading this board I want to respond to someone with some pretty funny oneliners as well.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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Diddy - Yes I do believe that she uses us as a safety blanket. I didn't know and I don't think she is aware of what NT is saying about the Timeframe. I honestly don't know if that would help her though. Right now she seems really stuck in a rut and nothing seems to help her.

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The timeframe for termination of parental rights (TPR) comes from the Adoption and Safe Families Act (ASFA), passed by Congress in 1997. It's not guaranteed that they will file right away, but in my experience, New York State tends to be pretty prompt in terms of filing a TPR when ASFA requires it.

It's normal for your sister to have relapses, struggle, and take a long time. Most of the studies of successful drug recovery say that it's non-linear and highly unpredictable. All this 'she has to hit absolute rock bottom before she gets the picture' stuff is mostly pop psychology BS. Addicts do 'use' loved ones all the time in their destructive behavior, but they also need those relationships to get clean. The whole idea of turning your back on them until they get better is kinda Puritanical and, in the long run, ineffective. There's always somebody with an anecdote to the contrary, but turning your back ends up hurting a lot more people than it helps.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

Oh I will never turn my back on her. As a matter of fact I am the only one really in my family that still deals with her. We talk all the time. She really does want the boys back. I don't really understand addiction as Im not addicted to anything never have been. But It obviously happens.

I do find it funny that NYS is prompt filing a TPR but they are so slow with almost everything else [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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I do find it funny that NYS is prompt filing a TPR but they are so slow with almost everything else

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break the feds' rules = lose the feds' $$$

also imo the system is designed in a way that is very hostile to families and this is a big part of it.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

I have nothing to add except that there has been some awesome advice in this thread. OOT comes though once again, and OP, I really hope you work it out. You sound like a stand up guy.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

if all else fails, dump the kids, keep the wife.
however, pray that mom gets the custody. if that happens, happy ending to the story

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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You sound like a nice guy who cares about his family even though they may be a bunch of [censored] ups so I will give you some serious advice. Tell your wife to stop being so selfish, sometimes there are things in this world that are out of her control. This is one of those times. You have a responsibility to these children at this point and putting them back into foster care would be wrong and possibly/probably detrimental to their well being. I am actually surprised anyone could be married to a woman who is so selfish that she wants to put these children back into foster care. I also think children need to be slapped on occasion if they misbehave so they know there are consequences. What you should do is get your belt out and use it on the 17 years, the 12 year and your wife when necessary so everyone knows who the man in the house is. All problems solved.

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You are having him beat everyone except the person who caused all the trouble.

I'd tell the wife to give it a year. The older boy can't stay after he's 18 (unless you both want him to and he wants to). Hopefully the 12 yo will get it together over the year. Hopefully your sister will get it together.

Accommodate your wife as best you can. Let her know that you don't expect her to be their Mom. Get a maid if you have to. Give your wife a few vacations alone if you have to.

That's as close as I can come to good advice here. I don't really think anyone who doesn't know a lot more about the people involved can have a very good idea what you should do.

Crappy situation. Best of luck.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

I think it depends on your relationship with the nephews. Were you there for them as they were growing up? Were you close to them from birth to now? I have 7 nephews. There are 2 of them that I would NOT risk my marriage over. I wasn't there when they were growing up, only dealt with them in the family for a few years and they are basically OK, but more towards the bad side so I would not choose them over my husband.

However, the other nephews I have been there from birth, been close to them and would take them over putting them in foster care in a heartbeat. If the husband doesn't agree then he has to go....it's blood relations, how can you put them in foster care where they can end up worse then what they are now because "noone cared".

Tough situation for you. I would only do it (keep the nephews) if I really loved and cared for them and was willing to lose the spouse over them.

T

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

I've read all the replies. While I'm sensitive to the other point of view, there's no way this is fair to your wife.

I love my nephews but there is no way that I would take them in unless my wife was totally onboard with it.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

adsman - Thanks

microbets - I do try to accomadate my wife the best I can. We both work M-F 8 - 5. I pick the boys up from football practice, and now it will be wrestling. I get them up for school. I cook dinner at least 4 times a week. Don't get me wrong Im not trying to look like uncle of the year here im just trying to keep everyone happy. I really am not forcing her to be a mom but a aunt to the boys and a little understanding of what the situation was when they came to us. The year before they went to 5 different schools in one year. But a good Idea on the vacation.

Iambusto - I do pray she gets them back. she is coming up for her next review in 2 weeks I will be dring 6 hrs to be there with her.

MissT - Im very close with all my family which is another issue, I send these boys to foster everyone is pissed at me (usually when I say that everyone says they should be pissed at your sister and believe me they are)

Toro- I also agree that it's unfair. But she did offer to take the boys in. However it was suppose to be temporary.

Hope I am answering or responding to all. Sorry If I miss some

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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I've read all the replies. While I'm sensitive to the other point of view, there's no way this is fair to your wife.

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There is no solution that is fair to all parties. Obviously she has some reason to feel aggrieved, but I'd like to think that in this situation I would be tolerant.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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I've read all the replies. While I'm sensitive to the other point of view, there's no way this is fair to your wife.

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There is no solution that is fair to all parties. Obviously she has some reason to feel aggrieved, but I'd like to think that in this situation I would be tolerant.

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Life isn't fair. When you marry someone, its supposed to be thru sickness and health, good times and bad. I personally think it is totally unfair of the wife to demand the nephews be sent to foster care. If my wife suddenly had to adopt her sister's 3 kids, I don't care what the struggles were, we'd work it out as a family.

No way the kids should be sent back to foster care, not when you are perfectly capable of raising them. Yes it'll be a HUGE sacrifice for you and your wife. But that is what family is all about. Other people have had to raise kids in far more demanding circumstances than this, and they've survived it all somehow.

Dump the wife and take care of the kids by yourself if you have to. The life of a child is precious and more important than your marriage in this case. I really feel that way.

10+ years from now when the kids are grown and have a brigh future, you'll be glad you stuck it out. Turn them over to the government and things go bad, you may never forgive yourself (or your wife).

Good luck.. BB

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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Dump the wife and take care of the kids by yourself if you have to. The life of a child is precious and more important than your marriage in this case. I really feel that way.

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I find it absolutely astounding that people are actually this stupid. My wife is the single, most important person in my life -- more important than my parents, siblings, and yes, even my own children.

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10+ years from now when the kids are grown and have a brigh future, you'll be glad you stuck it out.

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LOL. And be totally alone. How stupid is this?

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

"Dump the wife and take care of the kids by yourself if you have to."

Sorry, I could never do this.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

gump - Thank you. My wife and I sat and talked yesterday and I told her I have no way to make everyone happy. I mean if The Kids end up with My Mother Great everyone is happy. Buf if they end up in Fostercare I really don't know how I will feel toward my wife ( I know that is not fair to her either) If they kids stay with us I can see my wife finally giving up and leaving (we've been married just over 6 years)

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

Well One thing is for sure and I already knew there is no single answer. But thanks all for the input. Actually reading most of these helps put things in persective. We have a court date on Dec. 14th. I will be sure to keep you all updated between now and then. But feel free to keep posting. I will continue to respond. Hopefully I can become a better member and post more often on other topics.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

do the kids really not care if they're put in foster care? how's the 15 yo act at your sisters? any chance of swapping that one with the 12 yo?

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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I find it absolutely astounding that people are actually this stupid. My wife is the single, most important person in my life -- more important than my parents, siblings, and yes, even my own children.

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People have different values and I think most people would find your favoring your wife over your children to be upside down. I don't love my wife less than my children, but she's an adult and if necessary she could take care of herself. I MUST take care of my children. I will do pretty much whatever is best for them regardless of what they ever do to me or how out of proportion my cost is to their benefit.

I'm not sure how far I would take it with extended relatives. Fortunately this is very unlikely to happen to me and if it did my niece is great and my wife would be happy to have her.

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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gump - Thank you. My wife and I sat and talked yesterday and I told her I have no way to make everyone happy. I mean if The Kids end up with My Mother Great everyone is happy. Buf if they end up in Fostercare I really don't know how I will feel toward my wife ( I know that is not fair to her either) If they kids stay with us I can see my wife finally giving up and leaving (we've been married just over 6 years)

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what did she say!?

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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I think most people would find your favoring your wife over your children to be upside down.

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My post sounded much colder than it is. I don't favor my wife over my children, however, in about 3 years my youngest will be off to college. In 10 years, I expect both of my children will have started their own families, and they will have a wife or husband of their own (who will, of course, be more important to them than I).

I will still be with my wife for another 30 years or so.

In that context, do you understand why I put my wife at the highest level of importance?

Re: New to OOT. Have custody of my nephews. LONG
 

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Dump the wife and take care of the kids by yourself if you have to. The life of a child is precious and more important than your marriage in this case. I really feel that way.

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I find it absolutely astounding that people are actually this stupid. My wife is the single, most important person in my life -- more important than my parents, siblings, and yes, even my own children.


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I find it absolutely astounding that people are actually this selfish. NO WAY is a wife more important than your kids!!! If she is, then you are a terrible parent.

Wives come and go, can always get another one if necessary. But your children are you LIFE! They MUST be taken care of. People who abandon their children are the scum of the earth and deserve to be damned forever.

I love my wife of 22 years dearly, but I'd kick her to the curb in a second if she tried to keep me from raising the children I needed to take care of. Way too many self-centered a-holes out there who don't take care of their responsibilities - and the innocent children suffer as a result.

BB