NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

I was IP so I decided to just call the 3bet. When he bet so big on the flop and on the turn it looked to me like he has no trouble with the K but he hates the flushdraws and when the second one apears he panics. Is the fold OK?

Villain was 24/16/8.5 over 50 hands - haven't seen him do nothing out of the ordinary so far

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $7.61
UTG: $45.95
MP: $49.75
CO: $51.64
Hero (BTN): $68.66
SB: $59.71

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $6.50</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $4.50

Flop: ($13.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $12</font>, Hero calls $12

Turn: ($37.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $41.21 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

Very doubtful he's doing this with anything you beat.

One of the rareish spots I like folding TPTK in a 3bet pot.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

This is a tough situation. I really think the flop is push or fold at that point, cause you are putting in too much to ever be profitable. The problem is you are really chopping here at best given his line and your read.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

Bad. You were in a steal position and just called his pre-flop 3bet, so your hand is definitely underrepresented. You then flop top pair in a 3bet pot. Your pot-to-stack ratio is about 4.5-to-1: you should be happy to get it all in with TPTK.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

I don't really care what my pot-to-stack ratio is...If I'm not 33% against my opponents range then I'm not gonna call getting 2 to 1.

He's not bluffing here. On the turn I put his range to be mostly comprised of: AA,KK,AK,JJ....the only hand I think hero is ahead of that villian might have is AQ of clubs.


Even with 1 combo of QQ included it's not a call. I really really don't think he'll like ever do this with QQ though:



Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

660 games 0.005 secs 132,000 games/sec

Board: 3c Kc 4s Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.121% 12.12% 20.00% 80 132.00 { AsKh }
Hand 1: 67.879% 47.88% 20.00% 316 132.00 { AcAd, AcAh, AdAh, KdKs, QhQs, JcJd, JcJh, JdJh, AdKd, AcQc, AcKd, AcKs, AdKs, AhKd, AhKs }

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

Why no KQ/various club draw semibluffs? (Edit: meant to be in reply to Lego's post)

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

What kind of flop were you looking for when you called PF with AK if not this one?

Shove flop. As played, shove turn.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why no KQ/various club draw semibluffs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's doubtful he's 3betting those hands pre-flop. Especially the club draws...what club draw does he have here?


If I'd seen this guy 3bet pre-flop a few times then I'm probably making this call. But I'm not gonna include KQ and suited connectors in his range the first time he 3bets and then bets pot on flop and shoves turn.


"haven't seen him do nothing out of the ordinary so far"

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

I actually dont mind the call on the flop, in position, allowing you to evaluate the turn as cheap as possible.

With his bet on the turn, this is a fold. You dont beat much, that I think a solid player would 3bet with.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why no KQ/various club draw semibluffs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's doubtful he's 3betting those hands pre-flop. Especially the club draws...what club draw does he have here?


If I'd seen this guy 3bet pre-flop a few times then I'm probably making this call. But I'm not gonna include KQ and suited connectors in his range the first time he 3bets and then bets pot on flop and shoves turn.


"haven't seen him do nothing out of the ordinary so far"

[/ QUOTE ]

Given villian's TAG stats, three-betting a steal attempt from the button with KQ/A-decent x [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] doesn't seem like an out of line play.

If we're not willing to play for stacks on this board, we shouldn't be calling pre-flop.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very doubtful he's doing this with anything you beat.

One of the rareish spots I like folding TPTK in a 3bet pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
This looks a lot like AA here. Thoughts?

AC

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bad. You were in a steal position and just called his pre-flop 3bet, so your hand is definitely underrepresented. You then flop top pair in a 3bet pot. Your pot-to-stack ratio is about 4.5-to-1: you should be happy to get it all in with TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience AK is not a very profitable hand to stack off pf with at NL50. It might be that I rarely play against good aggressive players. I table select so that I have 2-3 loose passive donks at my table all the time and they only 3bet KK, AA, some of them even coldcall with KK and wait if an A does not flop. ( my last 4 AI pf hands were my KK vs other player's AA [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

Granted it's not the case with this oponent but generally I am not comfortable 4betting AI with AK pf. Leak? Should I do it as a standard move both IP and OOP?

I don't know why but when he cbet I had a gut feeling he has a made hand and is afraid I'll draw out on him. On the turn I only beat a bluff and this does not look like one.

I might get it in on the flop but really can't expect to get called by many worse hands IMO.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop were you looking for when you called PF with AK if not this one?

Shove flop. As played, shove turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kinda try not only to look at the board but also at villain's possible holdings. What hands do call my AI on the flop? What hands do I beat on the turn?

IMO pushing flop would only be good for shania telling villain not to mess with my raises but that is meaningless at NL50.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop were you looking for when you called PF with AK if not this one?

Shove flop. As played, shove turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mike Hart's comments after the game were hilarious, but I think you're still hung over from the game [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]. Our Hero got re-raise preflop, bet into on the flop, and had the turn shoved into him. We have to look at the betting pattern and the strength of it. The only hands doing this are AA-KK and AK. I'm finding a reason to fold here.

AC

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why no KQ/various club draw semibluffs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's doubtful he's 3betting those hands pre-flop. Especially the club draws...what club draw does he have here?


If I'd seen this guy 3bet pre-flop a few times then I'm probably making this call. But I'm not gonna include KQ and suited connectors in his range the first time he 3bets and then bets pot on flop and shoves turn.


"haven't seen him do nothing out of the ordinary so far"

[/ QUOTE ]

Given villian's TAG stats, three-betting a steal attempt from the button with KQ/A-decent x [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] doesn't seem like an out of line play.

If we're not willing to play for stacks on this board, we shouldn't be calling pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

PRE-FLOP:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

77,053,680 games 0.125 secs 616,429,440 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.175% 38.86% 10.32% 29939770 7951130.50 { AsKh }
Hand 1: 50.825% 40.51% 10.32% 31211649 7951130.50 { AcAd, AcAh, AdAh, KcKd, KcKs, KdKs, QQ-TT, AcKc, AdKd, AcQc, AdQd, AhQh, AcKd, AcKs, AdKc, AdKs, AhKc, AhKd, AhKs, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdQc, AdQh, AdQs, AhQc, AhQd, AhQs }



FLOP
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

28,710 games 0.005 secs 5,742,000 games/sec

Board: 3c Kc 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 71.529% 60.95% 10.58% 17498 3038.00 { AsKh }
Hand 1: 28.471% 17.89% 10.58% 5136 3038.00 { AcAd, AcAh, AdAh, KdKs, QdQh, QdQs, QhQs, JdJh, JdJs, JhJs, ThTs, AdKd, AcQc, AdQd, AhQh, AcKd, AcKs, AdKs, AhKd, AhKs, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdQc, AdQh, AdQs, AhQc, AhQd, AhQs }




TURN:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

660 games 0.005 secs 132,000 games/sec

Board: 3c Kc 4s Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.121% 12.12% 20.00% 80 132.00 { AsKh }
Hand 1: 67.879% 47.88% 20.00% 316 132.00 { AcAd, AcAh, AdAh, KdKs, QhQs, JcJd, JcJh, JdJh, AdKd, AcQc, AcKd, AcKs, AdKs, AhKd, AhKs }

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

I really cant think of a hand villain will do this with that we beat other than air which would be QQ. Mayyybeee AQcc/AQss. I think much more often than not we are looking at a split or a loss. I also agree however that this is a push or fold on the flop. I think I call too often on these flops in situations like this, but it is probably incorrect. I think I just shove flop but by the time you get to the turn, I fold.

Note: In case my shoving flop but folding turn doesnt make sense I think of it this way. On the flop youre losing to two hands realistically, KK/AA. When you get to the turn, now youre losing to AJ if he would 3 bet that and JJ as well. The jack just makes his 3 betting range crush you so much more by that point, same thing if a queen would have came off instead.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really cant think of a hand villain will do this with that we beat other than air which would be QQ. Mayyybeee AQcc/AQss. I think much more often than not we are looking at a split or a loss. I also agree however that this is a push or fold on the flop. I think I call too often on these flops in situations like this, but it is probably incorrect. I think I just shove flop but by the time you get to the turn, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I agree with this. No way I call the turn, but I'll shove the flop.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was IP so I decided to just call the 3bet. When he bet so big on the flop and on the turn it looked to me like he has no trouble with the K but he hates the flushdraws and when the second one apears he panics. Is the fold OK?

Villain was 24/16/8.5 over 50 hands - haven't seen him do nothing out of the ordinary so far

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $7.61
UTG: $45.95
MP: $49.75
CO: $51.64
Hero (BTN): $68.66
SB: $59.71

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $6.50</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $4.50

Flop: ($13.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $12</font>, Hero <font color="red"> is All-In</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[b]FYP

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

obv I can't fold on the flop, I have to either push or call

would anyone care to explain why pushing is more +EV than calling? If we are ahead we do not have to worry about overcards hitting, I saw mentioned several times in the forums that FDs should not worry us much in 3bet pots. So if we are ahead villain should not have many outs.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

Okay that is true, but if we just call you see what can happen? The jack hits and we have and just have to give up now.

Re: NL50 - TPTK in 3bet pot
 

I can't help it, if he does this when a 8d hits I fold anyway, I dont think the J helped him and if it did then he had 2 outs

I did not call to improve, I called to see what he does on the turn and he says he has me beat.

I really can't explain why but I was sure he thinks he has me beat (AA,KK,AK) might have been a timing thing I'm not sure.

So I am quite happy with my play in this particular case but I am curious what the standard way of playing this would be and why.