Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Suppose that you are in big blind and pick up a small pocket pair (e.g., 22-55) and that there are about three to four limpers when the action gets to you.

I used to default auto-limp in this situation and play for set value. Recently, however, I've been raising in this situation (to maybe something like 8 or 9 times the big blind). I either pick up the pot pre-flop or with a continuation bet on the flop.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this approach of raising in this situation. I realize that there are a lot of considerations (e.g., relative stack sizes, opponent tendencies, etc,). Assume for this question that no has fewer than 40BBs and that you are relatively new to the table, so have no solid reads.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

I've done both, and I think playing for set value is much better OOP.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

why create a big pot oop w/ no solid reads? If the table is relatively tight and you can take it down or get heads up then raisey daisey, but if you're likely to get 3 callers even with a big raise, then just check it and get paid off from their looseness after the flop. With no reads though, I would keep it on the conservative side.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

your basically turning this hand into a complete bluff, except for the extremely rare chance you flop a set and get action post flop your hand might as well be 72o. if you want to run a complete bluff why not do it with a trash hand, and use your small pairs to play for set value on cheap flops.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Raise PF is vastly superior to checking your option for multiple reasons. You can take down the pot PF sometimes with the raise from the BB. You can thin the field and take the pot down with a c-bet on the flop. Also, you create a larger flop for when you flop a set. The money is SOOOO much easier to get in the middle in a raised pot than an unraised pot. Its very difficult to get the money in the middle in an unraised pot without overbetting the pot on a few of the streets OR the villain has a good hand and is raising you somewhere in the hand. Whereas in a raised pot, it is easier to get the money in since there is more money in the pot going to the flop.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Raise preflop + blind c-bet costs near 12-15 BB. I don't think that's worth it.

cbboy, your argument is fine, for raising IP.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Its the superior play even when in the blinds. Just think about the amount of times you take down the pot PF or on the flop with a c-bet. And think about the time you stack someone when you hit a set (like I said previously, its extremely difficult to stack someone in an unraised pot unless they are raising you at some point in the hand or you overbet a few streets [assuming 100bb's]).

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

I do both depending on the table but check way more often. I used to raise 100% of the time but I don't think that's a great strategy.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Also forgot to ask, why would you raise after 3 limpers on the button with a small PP, but decide to check it in the BB after 3 limpers?

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

After checking my PT stats I'm willing to change my statement. It actually seems raising is way more profitable. Small sample size in this database though.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

I'd like to know what people are raising out of the BB with if you're not going to do it with PPs because I'm raising them nearly 100% of the time. Limping is stunningly weak.

If you limp and don't hit a set you're going to give up. If you hit a set, good luck trying to get money in, because it isn't going to happen. I don't want to win tiny 10-15 bb pots when I hit sets, I want to hit the felt ASAP. How are you going to get money in with a 6 bb pot on the flop? What's your plan when you hit a set in a limped pot OOP? Are you hoping someone will hit 2 pair? I'd really like to know what types of lines people are looking to take when they hit a set after limping.

If you raise PF you can win the pot PF. Miss your set? Why not cbet? You can rep AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ. This will win lots of pots on the flop. If you're opponents like calling cbets, that's even better! When you hit a set the pot is going to be decently sized on the flop. With a 15+bb pot you'll be able to commit opponents on the flop.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Just from my own experience I've felt that just completing or checking from the blinds preflop is more profitable. I've always thought, 'I dont want to raise because if I hit my set I want it to be a 3 or 4way pot where someone else will probably catch a piece and pay me off.'

If you're continually raising pre from this spot with small pairs its usually going to be a HU pot and like alot of ppl said a Cbet will take it down most of the time. I don't really agree with the argument that it's so much harder to get stacks in in an unraised pot. If your opponent is strong enough to to get all his chips in it shouldn't be too hard to get paid off when hitting your set.

I do agree with some/most of the arguments for raising the pairs oop pre though and think its a pretty good topic for some more discussion.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Well, how exactly do you plan to get the money in the middle in an unraised pot?

say its a 5bb pot. We flop a set and pot it. we get 1 caller. pot is now 15bb. we bet 13bb on a blank turn and he calls. 41bb in the pot now. (note, he has only put in 18bb or 18% of his stack). say we bet 35bb on the river and he calls. we only got 53bb out of him after betting strongly on ALL streets. How do you recommend getting all the money in? Doesn't look possible without him raising us at some point (thats just hoping he has a strong hand) or overbetting at some point in the hand.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

If we're getting stacks in isn't our opponent usually strong enough to raise us at some point in the hand? Also, do you always lead out when you flop your set or do you check and plan to raise a bet?

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Well, your only looking at the hands WHEN we flop a set and you are ignoring when we don't.

Well, the thing is that its just so mcuh easier to get the money in when the pot is raised. You are just hoping for other people to have strong hands so you can get raised or do the betting for you. However, if its a raised pot, all you have to do is bet and hope to get called instead of hoping to get raised or whatever.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

I'm in the raising boat... and just because you raise preflop doesn't mean you have to c-bet 100% of the time

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Good luck building a pot when you hit in an unraised pot. Limpers nearly never get stacked unless they hit big made hands or good draws. I vote for raising preflop unless I'm against players that have like 20% VPIP and 5% PFR stats or short stacks.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

So opponent/flow of game dependent, raise if you got FE directly or on the flop. But do not raise if the opponents are 50/10 stations.

Re: Playing small pocket pairs from BB in unraised pot
 

Raising is way, way better in the vast majority of SSNL games.