Possibly ignored AP cheating acct (modnote: nah)
 

Recently I have been discussing with other high limit players about the actual extent of cheating that occurred on AP. We all know that the most blatant examples of it occurred from approximately August 20th to September 16th of this year. However, there have been many reports (such as on point-spreads.com) claiming that the cheating has been going on for years, and resulted in as much as $7 million being pilfered from the players.

While I am not ready to buy into every crackpot conspiracy theory and witch hunt, I think it's worthwhile looking into a few suspect accounts that have not been examined thoroughly.

The one I'm most suspicious of is SPONSOR.

I am still collecting data on him, and I will have more to report shortly. However, this is my memory of SPONSOR:

1) He appeared sometime in the mid-summer of 2007.

2) He preferred heads-up play, and would play SUPER SHORT sessions -- sometimes less than 10 hands. After abruptly leaving (always when ahead), he would then return and play again against the same opponent. However, 15 minutes would always pass between sessions, and often it would be more time separating these micro-sessions.

3) He was an incredibly infuriating opponent. He was excellent at catching my bluffs and semi-bluffs, raising me back, even if his hand was not strong. I rarely got action from him when I had a monster. He barely ever lost any sessions -- whether against me or other opponents I watched him play. Even if he got off to a bad start, he always managed to come back and do well.

I remembered being incredibly frustrated at how "lucky" this guy was. I remembered thinking to myself that he didn't play well, and it was just a matter of time until he lost big to either me or another heads-up opponent. But it never happened -- at least, I never saw it happen.

4) He inexplicably vanished from the site right around the time that GRAYCAT showed up. Again, I need to go through my data to see the date of my last session with him.

Is all of this proof that he was a cheater with access to the superuser account? No. However, it is definitely worth looking into for several reasons.

First off, his "hit and run" style was especially peculiar. He would always hit and run for very small amounts. Some would say he was just obsessed with booking a win. However, he might have simply been a more "careful" cheater, making sure never to decimate any opponent in one sitting, and making sure not to stay too long at once so it was harder to put together a cohesive memory of his activities.

Second, the timing of his appearance and disappearance is odd. We all know the "admitted" cheating started in mid-to-late August. This guy appeared in June or July and vanished sometime around mid or late August. Why would he leave so abruptly if he was winning so much? Isn't it coincidental that his play seemed to directly precede that of the known cheaters?

Third, how did he run so well? He played a lot of heads up matches, yet almost always booked a win. Did he ever lose badly to anyone? How come nobody seemed to be able to get him down and keep him down? How come he ALWAYS managed to dig himself out of the hole, break above even, and leave?

Does anybody else have odd memories of this guy? Did his play seem superuser-ish to you? My memories of him seem to suggest that he exhibited a style rather similar to that of GRAYCAT -- except he played much shorter sessions, was more conservative in his per-session win goals, and preferred heads up.

What data do all of you have on him? I am not ANYWHERE near sure on this one, but I think it at least warrants investigation.

Furthermore, if we can indeed prove that SPONSOR was a cheater, it will be interesting to see if our refunds reflect money lost to him. If they don't, then obviously the refunds aren't as full and complete as AP is claiming, and point-spread.com's article may be a lot more true than we're giving it credit for.

Discussion open. Please don't clutter this thread with BS or comedy. I would rather hear from those who played with SPONSOR or observed his play.

Also, another suspect account, according to another highly respected online pro, is WAZFACTOR2. Please post data on that account. I did not play with WAZFACTOR2, so I cannot comment on him.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

just had a hand at 3/6, i had 79o, i raise it up from button 3 handed, bb calls, flop J73 i bet he calls, turn 7 bet call river J i bet he says "gotta see it" then FOLDS and says "i think u had 7/9" lol just kinda fun so i sat out

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
just had a hand at 3/6, i had 79o, i raise it up from button 3 handed, bb calls, flop J73 i bet he calls, turn 7 bet call river J i bet he says "gotta see it" then FOLDS and says "i think u had 7/9" lol just kinda fun so i sat out

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait. Was this against SPONSOR?

When did this occur?

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just had a hand at 3/6, i had 79o, i raise it up from button 3 handed, bb calls, flop J73 i bet he calls, turn 7 bet call river J i bet he says "gotta see it" then FOLDS and says "i think u had 7/9" lol just kinda fun so i sat out

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait. Was this against SPONSOR?

When did this occur?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it was just now vs random donk i can look his name up but wasnt sponsor. it was on AP though

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

PT screenshots plz

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

Heh, I remember SPONSOR. My experience with him was exact the same as yours, i.e. very anoying. Don't know if he was cheating though. I remember that he caught alot of my bluffs and didn't give me alot of action on big hands though. He almost only played HU and always left after winning a few hands. Then came back 15mins later. I remember one HU session vs him; he lost a few hands in the beginning and then was suddenly willing to play me at two tables for about half an hour trying to win it back. I'll check my DB when I'm back home.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

WOWOOWOWOWOWOWOW and the plot thickens

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Dan Druff

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

also dan, I'm confused as to how him playing for 15 minutes at a time a cheater, just makes him weird IMO

Dan,
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would he leave so abruptly if he was winning so much?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the smoking gun imo. You're not going to leave a site when you're having so much success. It's an obvious red flag.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

What is some of your problems? Unless you played in the games where this happened, who the hell cares. I am not searching for referees in the NBA who cheat, but I could investigate for hours on end and come up with something. Why? I may bet on an NBA game, but I am not a ref nor do I have the right to legally pursue them. Do you want me to send you a Super Nintendo? Would that keep you content? Getting others in trouble for something that didn't personally affect you is gay. You are beating a horse on a respirator. AP should ahve given you your money back. You care way too much about stuff that 99.9% of the world does not care about. Become a detective or investigator and be productive, research things that have real life consequences. Any harm done should have been fixed. If not, discuss that.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is some of your problems? Unless you played in the games where this happened, who the hell cares. I am not searching for referees in the NBA who cheat, but I could investigate for hours on end and come up with something. Why? I may bet on an NBA game, but I am not a ref nor do I have the right to legally pursue them. Do you want me to send you a Super Nintendo? Would that keep you content? Getting others in trouble for something that didn't personally affect you is gay. You are beating a horse on a respirator. AP should ahve given you your money back. You care way too much about stuff that 99.9% of the world does not care about. Become a detective or investigator and be productive, research things that have real life consequences. Any harm done should have been fixed. If not, discuss that.

[/ QUOTE ]

please, never post again. You're a complete idiot.

Re: Dan,
 

If he was smart enough to lose the hands at the beginning to ensure action, why wouldn't he also have been smart enough to have losing sessions?

Or do you think he would play for real, and if he lost he would load up the superuser observer account and win it all back?

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is some of your problems? Unless you played in the games where this happened, who the hell cares. I am not searching for referees in the NBA who cheat, but I could investigate for hours on end and come up with something. Why? I may bet on an NBA game, but I am not a ref nor do I have the right to legally pursue them. Do you want me to send you a Super Nintendo? Would that keep you content? Getting others in trouble for something that didn't personally affect you is gay. You are beating a horse on a respirator. AP should ahve given you your money back. You care way too much about stuff that 99.9% of the world does not care about. Become a detective or investigator and be productive, research things that have real life consequences. Any harm done should have been fixed. If not, discuss that.

[/ QUOTE ]

please, never post again. You're a complete idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]


Let it go. Let it go...

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

Also, posting stuff from "memory" is just stupid. Get the facts down and then present your case.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, posting stuff from "memory" is just stupid. Get the facts down and then present your case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, thank god you're here to keep us under control. What should I have for dinner?

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is some of your problems? Unless you played in the games where this happened, who the hell cares. I am not searching for referees in the NBA who cheat, but I could investigate for hours on end and come up with something. Why? I may bet on an NBA game, but I am not a ref nor do I have the right to legally pursue them. Do you want me to send you a Super Nintendo? Would that keep you content? Getting others in trouble for something that didn't personally affect you is gay. You are beating a horse on a respirator. AP should ahve given you your money back. You care way too much about stuff that 99.9% of the world does not care about. Become a detective or investigator and be productive, research things that have real life consequences. Any harm done should have been fixed. If not, discuss that.

[/ QUOTE ]

please, never post again. You're a complete idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

***You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.***

Quoting this idiot frustrates this feature. Please stop doing it. For my sanity. Please.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

I still haven't gotten money back from Graycat. Gotta call them today.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, posting stuff from "memory" is just stupid. Get the facts down and then present your case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, thank god you're here to keep us under control. What should I have for dinner?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anthrax

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
I still haven't gotten money back from Graycat. Gotta call them today.

[/ QUOTE ]

please keep us updated on their responses. Also, be an a-hole on the phone. Get your money.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is some of your problems? Unless you played in the games where this happened, who the hell cares. I am not searching for referees in the NBA who cheat, but I could investigate for hours on end and come up with something. Why? I may bet on an NBA game, but I am not a ref nor do I have the right to legally pursue them. Do you want me to send you a Super Nintendo? Would that keep you content? Getting others in trouble for something that didn't personally affect you is gay. You are beating a horse on a respirator. AP should ahve given you your money back. You care way too much about stuff that 99.9% of the world does not care about. Become a detective or investigator and be productive, research things that have real life consequences. Any harm done should have been fixed. If not, discuss that.

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't think losing tens of thousands of dollars has real life consequences? what world do you live in?

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is some of your problems? Unless you played in the games where this happened, who the hell cares. I am not searching for referees in the NBA who cheat, but I could investigate for hours on end and come up with something. Why? I may bet on an NBA game, but I am not a ref nor do I have the right to legally pursue them. Do you want me to send you a Super Nintendo? Would that keep you content? Getting others in trouble for something that didn't personally affect you is gay. You are beating a horse on a respirator. AP should ahve given you your money back. You care way too much about stuff that 99.9% of the world does not care about. Become a detective or investigator and be productive, research things that have real life consequences. Any harm done should have been fixed. If not, discuss that.

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't think losing tens of thousands of dollars has real life consequences? what world do you live in?

[/ QUOTE ]

To some, maybe including OP (who I was not addressing BTW). He and a HANDFUL of others are involved. Discuss this [censored] with them. Rumors are spread mainly by those who are bystanders. Again, he has no proof yet.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

Obvious troll... nh

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you played in the games where this happened, who the hell cares. I am not searching for referees in the NBA who cheat..

[/ QUOTE ]

To use your analogy, you are addressing some ALL-STAR NBA players on this thread, and they are very concerned and proactive in ensuring the playing field is level.

You should be thanking them for their efforts, rather than acting like a [censored] unappreciative jackass . You may not see the bigger picture, and just be thankful that others do.

And per your analogy, perhaps if the people cheating conspired to wreck your betting odds (watched you go hu against a superuser yet said nothing) , you might someday be bothered enough to get a clue or give a crap.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

Talk to Gemmer and Bryce, they make up most of this sample


EDIT: to be clear, this is Sponsor

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/5985/sponsoraprm1.jpg

Re: Dan,
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he was smart enough to lose the hands at the beginning to ensure action, why wouldn't he also have been smart enough to have losing sessions?

Or do you think he would play for real, and if he lost he would load up the superuser observer account and win it all back?

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't need to plan losing sessions if he's going to be a temporary account. Dan is basically saying this guy wasn't around for long, even though he was cleaning up. I'll also add, these are the kind of accounts we need to scrutinize.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

bottom line account 363 (super user) has been around since the beginning of AP, Ap has used account 363 to see hole cards, AP had already admitted thier is other cheating accounts we dont know about, DD is asking the right questions since AP refuses to tell us who these other accounts are

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to LIVELETDIE22 [4d 2c]
ANECHKA - Raises $50 to $50
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
CONTIGER - Folds
SPONSOR - Calls $35
LIVELETDIE22 - Folds
*** FLOP *** [5d Js 2h]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $25
SPONSOR - Calls $25
*** TURN *** [5d Js 2h] [3s]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $50
SPONSOR - Raises $100 to $100
ANECHKA - Raises $100 to $150
SPONSOR - Calls $50
*** RIVER *** [5d Js 2h 3s] [Jh]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $50
SPONSOR - Calls $50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ANECHKA - Shows [3c 3h] (Full house, threes full of jacks)
SPONSOR - Mucks
ANECHKA Collects $572 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($575) | Rake ($3)
Board [5d Js 2h 3s Jh]
Seat 1: CALVINHOBBES Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: CONTIGER (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: SPONSOR (small blind) HI: [Mucked] [Kd 9c]


i dunno...

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

I dont think Wazfactor was cheating; at least, not on 9/27; he also played early 10/xx/07 so talk too: truthy and BaronZeus
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7...factor2fw1.jpg

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

I just wanted to add another suspicous activity by Absolute Poker. They closed Schnibl0r's account, when he tried to cash out after a downswing. If you don't know who he is, Schnibl0r played 1000/2000 2 weeks ago on full tilt. Maybe he could provide some suspicious hand histories as well. At least all german players are warned to never play on this site shady site again. Schnibl0rs post 1 month ago:

[ QUOTE ]
I have probably something to add its not about cheating or so but absolute poker closed my account about 3month ago cause i did some chipdumping which i really didnt do and i cant do anything to reopen it i had about 35k on this site and its really [censored] up. It wouldnt wonder me if there is anything wrong with this site.....


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is some of your problems? Unless you played in the games where this happened, who the hell cares. I am not searching for referees in the NBA who cheat, but I could investigate for hours on end and come up with something. Why? I may bet on an NBA game, but I am not a ref nor do I have the right to legally pursue them. Do you want me to send you a Super Nintendo? Would that keep you content? Getting others in trouble for something that didn't personally affect you is gay. You are beating a horse on a respirator. AP should ahve given you your money back. You care way too much about stuff that 99.9% of the world does not care about. Become a detective or investigator and be productive, research things that have real life consequences. Any harm done should have been fixed. If not, discuss that.

[/ QUOTE ]

are u serious? what a clown...

dandruff is doing what no one else will

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

Edit: I obviously suck at posting PT screenshots.


Wazfactor2 from 10/02 and 10/07.

definitely not cheating http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o.../wazfactor.jpg

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to LIVELETDIE22 [4d 2c]
ANECHKA - Raises $50 to $50
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
CONTIGER - Folds
SPONSOR - Calls $35
LIVELETDIE22 - Folds
*** FLOP *** [5d Js 2h]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $25
SPONSOR - Calls $25
*** TURN *** [5d Js 2h] [3s]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $50
SPONSOR - Raises $100 to $100
ANECHKA - Raises $100 to $150
SPONSOR - Calls $50
*** RIVER *** [5d Js 2h 3s] [Jh]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $50
SPONSOR - Calls $50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ANECHKA - Shows [3c 3h] (Full house, threes full of jacks)
SPONSOR - Mucks
ANECHKA Collects $572 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($575) | Rake ($3)
Board [5d Js 2h 3s Jh]
Seat 1: CALVINHOBBES Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: CONTIGER (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: SPONSOR (small blind) HI: [Mucked] [Kd 9c]


i dunno...

[/ QUOTE ]

show's over, nothing to see here

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to LIVELETDIE22 [4d 2c]
ANECHKA - Raises $50 to $50
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
CONTIGER - Folds
SPONSOR - Calls $35
LIVELETDIE22 - Folds
*** FLOP *** [5d Js 2h]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $25
SPONSOR - Calls $25
*** TURN *** [5d Js 2h] [3s]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $50
SPONSOR - Raises $100 to $100
ANECHKA - Raises $100 to $150
SPONSOR - Calls $50
*** RIVER *** [5d Js 2h 3s] [Jh]
SPONSOR - Checks
ANECHKA - Bets $50
SPONSOR - Calls $50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ANECHKA - Shows [3c 3h] (Full house, threes full of jacks)
SPONSOR - Mucks
ANECHKA Collects $572 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($575) | Rake ($3)
Board [5d Js 2h 3s Jh]
Seat 1: CALVINHOBBES Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: CONTIGER (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: SPONSOR (small blind) HI: [Mucked] [Kd 9c]


i dunno...

[/ QUOTE ]

show's over, nothing to see here

[/ QUOTE ]

not so fast. Couldn't this be a hand early in the session where he wants to look like a donk? Why would the show be over?

EDIT: I think the evidence is in the total profits from his sessions. If they are all +, then the show is still going on.

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

[ QUOTE ]
not so fast. Couldn't this be a hand early in the session where he wants to look like a donk? Why would the show be over?

[/ QUOTE ]

show me one hand where any of the 5 other accounts wanted to establish table image or some such crap

also, VPIP 72 != VPIP 95

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

I admit that the evidence seems to lean against him being a cheater. Still, I am troubled by my personal feelings from my sessions versus him, and especially suspicious that he seemed to vanish right before GRAYCAT showed up.

Does ANYONE have a hand with him after August 20th?

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

Also, when are we going to find out ALL THE ACCOUNT NAMES that AP concluded to have cheated?

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

Dan-
it really looks like you are dragging someones name through the mud with little evidence other than he owned the site for awhile. This bothers me a lot because I'm one of those players who owned AP for awhile and it seems that I could be next to be pulled into the witchhunt. If you have solid evidence against somebody than by all means expose them, but please realize that due to your high profile in this investigation you have the ability to do harm to real people and you should treat this power carefully

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

agreed adanthar, but vpip of 72 might turn into 95 if you've been getting away with it for so long. Look, you might be right on this. All I'm saying is that it can't be dismissed outright because of this one hand. In cases like this, if you assume the house is playing accounts, you have to look at complete sessions instead of individual hands. That seems fair don't you think?

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

Sponsor isnt a cheat account, I kill him all the time at 25/50 HU 08

edit- and theres no [censored] way he can see my cards

Re: Possibly ignored AP cheating acct: SPONSOR
 

ya hes lost a lot of money to me at O8 too lolz