Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Pot limit, 0.10 blind. Sorry for the format - is there an O8 converter that works with Absolute?

PF raiser was tight and seemed like he knew what he was doing, unlike nearly everybody else at the table. BB at least has some idea about PF hand selection, tends to size bets according to strength of hand. Hero plays a lot more limit; this is an early foray into PL.

Hero UTG (Ad 4d 4h 7s) calls 0.10
2 calls, 1 fold
CO raises pot to 0.65
BTN, SB fold
BB calls, Hero calls, 1 call, 1 fold.

4 handed flop, 2.75 pot
Flop (Jd 4c Qs)
BB leads out 0.30
Hero...?

Is a raise here spew? How often, realistically, do I run into a larger set? Can I discount the Broadway str/wrap draws b/c the PFR plus multiple callers (plus the one I hold) likely means a number of aces are dead?

Thanks for the input.

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Posters on here constantly complain about HH from Absolute not being posted properly, but no-one says how to do it - so I wouldn't worry about it.

As to the hand, pretty hard to put the BB on anything since so many players will defend their BB with any 4 - including broadway pairs.. He may have top 2 or a bigger set.

To me, the small bet on the flop looks like he can stand callers - although on the flip side it may just be a feeler bet.

Either way, in the long run I think you go broke pushing bottom set in multiway pots.

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Fold to the PFR

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

EDIT: Realized I forgot to post stack sizes.

Hero 8.25
CO 3.55
BB 4.97
other caller 6.04

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the PFR

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the most sensible approach.

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Folding to the preflop raise is ok. You will not hit the flop often enough to make a call +ev postflop.

As played the pot is to big on the flop that you can fold. Push and hope for the best.

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

[ QUOTE ]

Is a raise here spew?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, a pot sized raise is a reasonable play. This rainbow flop with only one low card is probably not very popular, and there are good chances that at least the preflop raiser and the caller will fold. Your set is a favourite to BB's probable straight draw or two pair.

Folding is too weak and calling is simply bad. You can't give your opponents cheap cards to draw out on you.

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Heron called it. Given the way the table was playing, I thought the CO likely had A2Wx and the BB a straight draw and put in a pot-sized raise. I was almost right; CO claimed afterwards he had AA39ds, BB had KKQT. Other caller folded, CO folded, BB called. With the 3 dead aces I was a 71-29 favorite. BB spiked the last A and scooped. The real question is, did I essentially commit myself to ruin here and just happen to have a lucky/correct enough read equity-wise on the major decision? On the flop, the PSR seems like the only option.

Sorry for the navel-gazing. CO started an argument with me after the hand and I've been thinking about it for a little while.

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

i think fold to pre-flop raise as has been said, weak a-4 hands,dont stand up to raises all that way.

As played.. you cant just fold bottom sets on rainbow, 2 high card boards... re-raise pot here, with the intention of giving up if re-raised

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Damicles – A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a rather marginal, maybe even sub-marginal, starting hand in a full fixed-limit game. In such a game, I try to avoid starting hands with small pairs. And the seven, a middle card, doesn’t help very much.

At any rate, playing pot-limit rather than fixed-limit, you limp from UTG with the hand and CO pops it.

Now the question is, “How do your opponents play?” Seven opponents were dealt cards. Two of them call the pre-flop raise. Would any of the four who fold before the flop fold a hand with a pair of queens or a pair of jacks? Might any of the three who are playing have a pair of queens or a pair of jacks?

If you opine that nobody would fold a hand with a pair of queens or jacks, and anybody would play such a hand, then you have to figure the chance you are up against a set of queens or jacks on the basis of seven opponents. One or more of them will have been dealt a hand with a pair of queens or jacks, after considering the cards in your own hand and also the flop, roughly between one time out of five and one time out of four, a bit closer to one time out of five – something like that.

But if any of the ones who folded would just as soon fold a pair of queens or a pair of jacks as not, and the ones who are continuing would just as soon play a pair of queens or a pair of jacks as not, then you’ll be up against a higher set roughly one time out of ten.

And it’s hard to tell if you’re up against a set of jacks, because the holder of the pair of jacks will be worried that you hold a pair of queens.

At any rate, somewhere between 10% and 25%, depending on how your opponents play and dumb luck, you’ll be up against a higher set after this flop.

Aside from a flop with a pair of fours, this rainbow flop with only one low card is as good as it gets for your own pair of fours. (One of your fours would go nicely with your ace after a flop of 2-3-5, but that’s only using one of the fours). And that’s why a pair of fours stinks in an opening hand – that and you’ll take a damned beating if someone has a higher set or if the board pairs the queen or jack and an opponent is playing QJYZ or various other combinations that make a higher full house than your miserable pair of fours.

But anyhow, you saw the flop with a hand containing a pair of fours and the flop is almost as good as it gets for your pair of fours and now what?

I don’t know what to tell you. In a fixed-limit game, I’d play it fast. Chances are nobody has a higher set and you want to at least make it expensive for anybody to draw out on you.

You’ll get a lot of advice to bet and fold to pressure. I don’t do that much, because in my games if I do that one time, I’m going to have opponents continuously bluff-raising me after I bet. If you wait until you have the nuts before betting, it’s wonderful to have your opponents bluff-raising you, but I’m routinely betting lots of times without the nuts and I don’t want to get bluff raised when I do.

At any rate, I consider the pair of fours more of a liability than an asset, and the same is true of any combination I make with the seven. So for me, playing this hand would be like spotting my opponents two extra cards and playing with a bare A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I’d see the flop with this hand if I was in late position and did not expect a raise from a blind - or if I was in the small blind and did not expect a raise from the big blind - or if I was in the big blind and didn’t get double raised before the flop. But that’s about it.

If you’re not going to play the flopped set of fours, then you should not have seen the flop with a hand, half of which was a pair of fours. Therefore, it seems like you should do something. What?

I guess you play the set of fours like it was a set of queens and pray.

Buzz

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

omg, throw the hand away to the raise like it was a piece of extra-stinky poo, what do you want to hit? A four or a 23 gives you more trouble than profit, NFD makes you call off your stack, this hand sucks

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

I assume by your question and the stakes you are playing you are new to PLO8 so I am going to flavor my response in that vain…

One of the ways you make money in PLO8 is by avoiding big mistakes and taking advantage of others big mistakes. Playing small pairs and then stacking off with them when you hit your set is a big mistake. Bloating pots with marginal hands OOP is a big mistake. Playing marginal hands OOP is a small mistake, calling raises with marginal hands OOP is a bigger mistake… Do you see where this is going?

Do yourself a favor. Play tight OOP and save your loose play for the button or cut off.

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Ukulele Playing Cat (Garcia) - I agree the starting hand is a piece of extra-stinky-poo when you face a raise before the flop.

But Damocles' question was about after the flop. If you're going to throw this hand away when you make a set with your fours, then I don't see how you can play the hand to begin with.

Buzz

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Well in plo8b, this hand isn't as terrible as a lot are saying here, at least in position. The defintion of a terrible hand is really how you will play it. A44 is a bad combo if you are going to go bonkers drawing to a bad low. But in the right conditions, mostly playing its high strength, its fine.

FWIW, I was once told here that A2 junky was a pass.

gl

bdd

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

Hi Big Dave - [ QUOTE ]
. A44 is a bad combo if you are going to go bonkers drawing to a bad low. But in the right conditions, mostly playing its high strength, its fine.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I was once told here that A2 junky was a pass.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think I ever wrote that, but I guess it's not impossible. I currently think it would depend on the situation.

Generally, rightly or wrongly, I'm probably playing A2-junky. But I'm not sure that's true of everyone.

As an aside, I appreciate your opinions on the other forum I moderate. You tend to lend some balance to what otherwise might be a one-sided discussion, and one that might tend to ridicule the opposing point of view. Thanks for that. (However, I can't guarantee you won't take some abuse for presenting an opposing point of view - although I'll try to control it - but some of those posters over there are subtly clever in getting around me).

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Buzz

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

[ QUOTE ]
But Damocles' question was about after the flop. If you're going to throw this hand away when you make a set with your fours, then I don't see how you can play the hand to begin with.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're right.

Postflop I'd raise pot on the flop and then fold to any further action unless I hit quads. You really do have a crappy hand here.

Big Dave D - how much profit do you think you will make playing something like A27J UTG in pot-limit?

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

[ QUOTE ]

Big Dave D - how much profit do you think you will make playing something like A27J UTG in pot-limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you implying this is ever a fold based on hand value alone?

Re: Bottom set on flop, one low board
 

It depends on how stupid my opponents are. In some games, its clearly bad. In other games, it is profitable. And of course position is key. From what I've seen, the current level of play on Stars, for example, is pretty nitty and would make aj72 particularly a tough ride. In times in the past the game has been much wider open. But if you can pass a nut low draw, or even a nut low made, then a2 is almost never a bad hand.

gl

bdd