Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

Not because of charitable work or anything like that. But rather simply because it makes a lot of people happier than they otherwise would be. They might claim that they would like to be free of the restrictions that their religion puts on them. But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

Even if you go under the assumption that the specifics of any religion are definitely false, that doesn't mean that a practitioner of that religion or even someone not yet born who is destined to practice it, is better off not believing in it. The fact is that only a minority of the individuals in this world gain more than they lose by being atheists, even if atheism is assumed to be correct.

In order to gain from atheism you need to be the type of person who derives much satisfaction from knowing the truth and you also need to be someone who is pretty happy with what they are doing and how their life is going. There are atheists who do not fit into this category of course. They might be ex theists who have become embittered. But that was probably too bad for them.

I had originally assummed that almost everyone on this forum is one of those minority of people who is better off not believing in something that is a monumental underdog to be true. Which is why I gave arguments for non belief. Perhaps ten percent of theists would be happier if they became atheists. But I thought a much bigger percent of two plus two theists would be happier as atheists. I don't think that anymore. So I see no good reason for me to pursue the subject further.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

So you mean, above and beyond "drug addicts are happier on drugs?"

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you mean, above and beyond "drug addicts are happier on drugs?"

[/ QUOTE ]

If in fact drug addicts were truly happier on drugs I would mean only slightly more than that. But most drug addicts aren't, so it is a bad analogy.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you mean, above and beyond "drug addicts are happier on drugs?"

[/ QUOTE ]

If in fact drug addicts were truly happier on drugs I would mean only slightly more than that. But most drug addicts aren't, so it is a bad analogy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like 5 seconds after they inject I mean, obviously. Or at least, the pain involved in getting clean isnt worth it.

That they are actually less happy being addicts than they would be otherwise is the "more" that I'm talking about. Many people make the claim that shedding religious beliefs is very painful. Having them makes them comfortable and happy. But they say that they could be happier if they never started in the first place, or after they've "gotten clean." You are saying that even had they never started or even AFTER they get clean, they would still be less happy than when they were "hooked."

Just asking for clarification.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

Vhawk already nailed it pretty much,

We all get comfort from our obsessions. You can't gauge the benevolence of your obsession solely by how good it makes you feel, or we should all be addicted to heroin, and we would encourage sociopathy and serial killings. It's about impact and influence.

Our obsession might be knowledge. We want to learn and be informed. In a democratic society especially this has a positive impact. Some may be obsessed with the outdoors; these are the people who have expertise to search and rescue, and save lives. Some may be obsessed with football, and entertain millions. What tangible, if anything, does religion offer to the world as a side effect of the happiness it brings to the individual?

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many people that say this are lying to themselves. Do you really think those same people with the same families would be depressed if they were raised atheist instead?

I think only a very small percent of theists receive a large amount of hope/inspiration/whatever from it.

I think as our society progresses, the downside of religion is getting exponentially greater. If there were never any atheists, imagine how far set back our scientific knowledge would be.

Then there's the obvious argument that most wars are caused by religion, coupled with all the intolerance, hate, and bigotry, etc.

Are you really thinking on a global level?

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many people that say this are lying to themselves. Do you really think those same people with the same families would be depressed if they were raised atheist instead?

I think only a very small percent of theists receive a large amount of hope/inspiration/whatever from it.

I think as our society progresses, the downside of religion is getting exponentially greater. If there were never any atheists, imagine how far set back our scientific knowledge would be.

Then there's the obvious argument that most wars are caused by religion, coupled with all the intolerance, hate, and bigotry, etc.

Are you really thinking on a global level?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

I'm ALMOST positive that I've never said anything either way about this, meaning I've never said "Well, some people are just happier with their delusions" OR "Man, everybody would be way happier if they could just shed these delusions." Mostly because I have absolutely no idea which of those is true (and suspect both are false). However, I do notice many atheists (more than half) say things like "Well some people just are happier believing in fables" and it always sounds to me like "stupid mouthbreathers need to suck their thumbs or they will cry all night and throw a fit." It seems incredibly condescending to me. There are probably people who arent interested in truth or critcial evaluation of their beliefs and are only interested in superficial comfort. But surely there are plenty of people who are capable of handling shocks to their system and maybe have never even THOUGHT of deeply questioning their religious beliefs, or heard any persuasive arguments, or something like that. It just seems elitist to decree that most people who are religious are that way because they are trembling cowards who couldnt handle a Godless world.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not because of charitable work or anything like that. But rather simply because it makes a lot of people happier than they otherwise would be. They might claim that they would like to be free of the restrictions that their religion puts on them. But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

Even if you go under the assumption that the specifics of any religion are definitely false, that doesn't mean that a practitioner of that religion or even someone not yet born who is destined to practice it, is better off not believing in it. The fact is that only a minority of the individuals in this world gain more than they lose by being atheists, even if atheism is assumed to be correct.

In order to gain from atheism you need to be the type of person who derives much satisfaction from knowing the truth and you also need to be someone who is pretty happy with what they are doing and how their life is going. There are atheists who do not fit into this category of course. They might be ex theists who have become embittered. But that was probably too bad for them.

I had originally assummed that almost everyone on this forum is one of those minority of people who is better off not believing in something that is a monumental underdog to be true. Which is why I gave arguments for non belief. Perhaps ten percent of theists would be happier if they became atheists. But I thought a much bigger percent of two plus two theists would be happier as atheists. I don't think that anymore. So I see no good reason for me to pursue the subject further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post, David. You and I agree on the happiness factor. We disagree on what truth is, but I'm glad to see you make such a post. You're intelligent enough to see how much the intangible benefit means to many people.

FWIW, I do derive much satisfaction from "knowing the truth," and I think a lot of other theists do as well. There is almost certainly, however, a much greater number of theists who believe on the much more "intangible basis" that you describe. Anyway, "truth" is debated in almost every other thread, so I will leave it alone here.

Also, FWIW, there are many things about being a theist that make me unhappy. For instance, I believe in hell and there aren't many people that I'd feel good about them going there. In fact, it's hard to imagine even a grotesque figure like Hitler deserving damnation in eternity. Maybe 10,000 years, but forever? That doesn't make me happy at all. In fact, as a believer in Christ, I hope that there is some sort of way that everyone eventually gets to heaven. I know that's not described in the Bible, but, as far as I know, it's not completely ruled out. Certainly, I believe that God understands things in a way that I don't, so, I do believe that, in some way, he has infinate grace.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

Basically, most people are happier in the Matrix. I would agree with that.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, most people are happier in the Matrix. I would agree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know that the Matrix is religion? How do you know it's not materialism, money, sex, television, cinema, science, the denial of God, and the western culture?

Just food for thought.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many people that say this are lying to themselves. Do you really think those same people with the same families would be depressed if they were raised atheist instead?

I think only a very small percent of theists receive a large amount of hope/inspiration/whatever from it.

I think as our society progresses, the downside of religion is getting exponentially greater. If there were never any atheists, imagine how far set back our scientific knowledge would be.

Then there's the obvious argument that most wars are caused by religion, coupled with all the intolerance, hate, and bigotry, etc.

Are you really thinking on a global level?

[/ QUOTE ]

The people we need to be atheists already are for the most part.

Those on this forum almost certainly underestimate the number of people who would live in quiet desperation without their religion.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

David Sklansky FTW!

Nice post Mempho. I even have a hard time seeing Judas in hell.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Those on this forum almost certainly underestimate the number of people who would live in quiet desperation without their religion.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm torn on this one. Certainly in the West where the average age is in the 40s, there are a lot of old and unhappy people who are comforted by religion.

But they've also grown up with religion and its comforts, and never had a chance to develop a happy, god free outlook as young adults, and true moral courage in the absence of Santa/God. I agree that pulling the rug from under them is bad - but I don't necessarily agree that over the sum of a life, a person raised with religion will be happier than one raised without.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think as our society progresses, the downside of religion is getting exponentially greater. If there were never any atheists, imagine how far set back our scientific knowledge would be.

[/ QUOTE ]
How so? In my opinion the greatest dangers to humanity's future will come from people like yourself who embrace all technology enthusiastically with poor regard for the consequences. Irrational belief systems may be just the check we need on this consequence-be-damned view of technological progress.

[ QUOTE ]
Then there's the obvious argument that most wars are caused by religion, coupled with all the intolerance, hate, and bigotry, etc

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't this highly debatable?

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

You are missing a very important part of the question. Having religion may make individuals happier (this probably varies from individual to individual), but will it make people who have to deal with these individuals happier? That is if my neighbors/government/whatever are religious this may lead to a decrease in my well being. This will be especially true if I'm one of any number of groups their religion might not see eye to eye with such as a- a different religion, b- atheist, c- homosexual (or I engage in any behavior their religion deems immoral). It's also possible that religion might make people more judgemental in a general sence. History indicate, IMO, that religion does more harm than good, not because being religious makes people unhappy, but because being religious makes people persecute others leading to those others being unhappy.

some former discussion unrelated to the point I just made, but focusing on whether or not religion does or does not make individuals happier:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1
Edit: don't read past page 7 unless you want to read a long testy debate with Brad

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
David Sklansky FTW!

Nice post Mempho. I even have a hard time seeing Judas in hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the Bible, Hell is described in multiple verses as being eternal, everlasting, & for ever & ever.......what is the meaning of those words???

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

one of the reasons the jews (who actually read the torah, unlike christaians) were persecuted in the middle ages was that they practiced the sanitary rules in the bible and thus didn't get sick/as sick as the locals (like during plagues) who knew nothing about the word of god, so it was easy for clergy and others to politicize the issue to steal from the jews using as a pretense that jews were in league with devil, etc.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

If the only factor in measuring the worth of something was the happiness it brings, then David would be right.

But how can you judge Religion on that factor alone.

Also- I suspect people are happier when they believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and that little babies are delivered by the Stork. Does that mean it does more good if we all continued to believe those things then to know the truth?

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David Sklansky FTW!

Nice post Mempho. I even have a hard time seeing Judas in hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the Bible, Hell is described in multiple verses as being eternal, everlasting, & for ever & ever.......what is the meaning of those words???

[/ QUOTE ]

quotes plz.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David Sklansky FTW!

Nice post Mempho. I even have a hard time seeing Judas in hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the Bible, Hell is described in multiple verses as being eternal, everlasting, & for ever & ever.......what is the meaning of those words???

[/ QUOTE ]

quotes plz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt 18: 7-9
Matt 25: 40-42
Jude 1: 6-8
Isaiah 33:14
Mark 9:43
Rev 20: 7-10

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

Nah, I don't buy it.

The big truth is that we don't know how society would be if religion was all but 'extinct', we only have the version now where some 85% of the world adheres to some form of religion. Where I come from about 50% of the populace are atheist, 50% theist and maybe a fifth of them practicing theists - I honestly am not seeing any large lack of happiness.

I'm sure we could have focused all those endless supplies of money that goes into religion in something worthwhile, like hedonism.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
If in fact drug addicts were truly happier on drugs I would mean only slightly more than that. But most drug addicts aren't, so it is a bad analogy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The drug analogy is almost perfect. If drug addicts became clean and got their lives together, they'd be happier than they are on drugs. Of course, they would have to go through withdrawals, and they might never deal with the mental health issues that led them to drugs in the first place.

Similarly, a religious person who learns to find fulfillment in reality instead of fantasy, and in life instead of hope for afterlife, will be much happier. But letting go of religion is uncomfortable, and they might never find personal satsifaction.

Also, while individual use does no harm, there's great potential for damage in the distribution channels and in individual abuse.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

Yes Brad I agree with you, I'm just saying I understand where Mempho is coming from.

A Not Nice Clarification
 

The responses here have forced me to elaborate. I have recently been reading some stuff about cognitive dissonance and related subjects. The idea that the human brain will go to great lenghths to keep its owner from suffering psychologically. Thes lengths include the thinking of clearly irrational thoughts. I've previously mentioned the well known extreme cases of paralyzed stroke victims who actually maintain they are not paralyzed. Less extreme examples might be someone who won't denounce alcohol because it would mean he must lower his opinion of his parents if he does. Or the senator who believes we are right to be in Iraq in because if he thinks otherwise, it means his earlier vote was foolish.

The point is that the more pain someone will suffer by thinking X the more preposterous not X has to be before he will give up his not X thoughts. (The only exceptions are, for the most part, people like scientists or professional gamblers who are punished badly for being wrong.)

It is because of the above that I believe that there are more people than you might think who are suffering. (It is not because I am well versed in global sociology.) To believe that a specific religion almost certainly has almost all of the details right is clearly preposterous. Any intelligent, non brainwashed nine year old is capable of seeing that. Yet billions believe exactly that. If you accept my earlier statement that the human brain will allow even preposterous beliefs to seem rational if the alternative will result in misery, you must agree that the mere existence of all these specific religions (in this day and age) is strong evidence of a lot of unhappy people.

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

Your points are fine, but I disagree that most people have religious beliefs to prevent misery. They have them because they're stupid, brainwashed, non committed, or socially conditioned.

The fear and despair that people feel at the possible loss of faith has more to do with the natural fear of change than it does with suffering or comfort.

People like NotReady, who actually know or suspect the atheist position is correct and continue to be religious regardless, are in the minority I think.

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

[ QUOTE ]
The responses here have forced me to elaborate. I have recently been reading some stuff about cognitive dissonance and related subjects. The idea that the human brain will go to great lenghths to keep its owner from suffering psychologically. Thes lengths include the thinking of clearly irrational thoughts. I've previously mentioned the well known extreme cases of paralyzed stroke victims who actually maintain they are not paralyzed. Less extreme examples might be someone who won't denounce alcohol because it would mean he must lower his opinion of his parents if he does. Or the senator who believes we are right to be in Iraq in because if he thinks otherwise, it means his earlier vote was foolish.

The point is that the more pain someone will suffer by thinking X the more preposterous not X has to be before he will give up his not X thoughts. (The only exceptions are, for the most part, people like scientists or professional gamblers who are punished badly for being wrong.)

It is because of the above that I believe that there are more people than you might think who are suffering. (It is not because I am well versed in global sociology.) To believe that a specific religion almost certainly has almost all of the details right is clearly preposterous. Any intelligent, non brainwashed nine year old is capable of seeing that. Yet billions believe exactly that. If you accept my earlier statement that the human brain will allow even preposterous beliefs to seem rational if the alternative will result in misery, you must agree that the mere existence of all these specific religions (in this day and age) is strong evidence of a lot of unhappy people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, cognitive dissonance theory states that a person rationalizes his acts thus changing his beliefs. He might as well rationalize being an atheist as being religious, and achieve the same happiness.

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your points are fine, but I disagree that most people have religious beliefs to prevent misery. They have them because they're stupid, brainwashed, non committed, or socially conditioned.

The fear and despair that people feel at the possible loss of faith has more to do with the natural fear of change than it does with suffering or comfort.

People like NotReady, who actually know or suspect the atheist position is correct and continue to be religious regardless, are in the minority I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a continuum. The less intelligent you are, the less preposterous your specific religion is to you, and the less likely your belief is a symptom of unhappiness that would manifest itself if the religion was taken away from you. More intelligent people who believe these specifics are more likely to suffer if they were forced to admit to themselves that they are ridiculous to be so sure of religious details. (Unless that belief is stopping them from being great scientists or gamblers). Since it is mainly this category of theist that frequent this forum, I don't think I want to try to convince them of the error of their ways anymore.

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

[ QUOTE ]
The responses here have forced me to elaborate. I have recently been reading some stuff about cognitive dissonance and related subjects. The idea that the human brain will go to great lenghths to keep its owner from suffering psychologically. Thes lengths include the thinking of clearly irrational thoughts. I've previously mentioned the well known extreme cases of paralyzed stroke victims who actually maintain they are not paralyzed. Less extreme examples might be someone who won't denounce alcohol because it would mean he must lower his opinion of his parents if he does. Or the senator who believes we are right to be in Iraq in because if he thinks otherwise, it means his earlier vote was foolish.

The point is that the more pain someone will suffer by thinking X the more preposterous not X has to be before he will give up his not X thoughts. (The only exceptions are, for the most part, people like scientists or professional gamblers who are punished badly for being wrong.)

It is because of the above that I believe that there are more people than you might think who are suffering. (It is not because I am well versed in global sociology.) To believe that a specific religion almost certainly has almost all of the details right is clearly preposterous. Any intelligent, non brainwashed nine year old is capable of seeing that. Yet billions believe exactly that. If you accept my earlier statement that the human brain will allow even preposterous beliefs to seem rational if the alternative will result in misery, you must agree that the mere existence of all these specific religions (in this day and age) is strong evidence of a lot of unhappy people.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't mean that religion does more good than harm. All it means is that abandoning religion may cause pain. The two are very different conclusions.

Also, the avoidance of pain is not the only source of cognitive distortion - it's one of many. It's fallacious, then, to suggest that because cognitive distortion is observed, there must be pain avoidance happening.

I think it does frequently cause pain for a religious person to become nonreligious, but your reasoning here is flawed.

It's been demonstrated that people will hold irrational beliefs due to authority (people will believe all kinds of things when instructed by authority, and people will even create false memories based on suggestions from authority figures), conformity (people refuse to believe their very eyes - see the Asch experiments for one of the most striking examples of irrationality), usefulness (some salespeople may actually come to believe their product is superior, simply because it makes them more effective salespeople), and momentum (people don't like changing their habits, and are reluctant to change their beliefs in any way after a certain age). The phenomenon of religion could be explained by any or all of these factors (along with some others), not just with suffering.

Also, gamblers and scientists have incentive to resist these biases, but they are highly susceptible to them just like everyone else. Being a gambler or scientist does not protect you from irrational thinking, only careful evaluation of your own thoughts and a critical eye toward yourself can do that. The greatest thinkers ever have made disastrously stupid mistakes due simply to their arrogance.

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

"Your points are fine, but I disagree that most people have religious beliefs to prevent misery. They have them because they're stupid, brainwashed, non committed, or socially conditioned.

The fear and despair that people feel at the possible loss of faith has more to do with the natural fear of change than it does with suffering or comfort.

People like NotReady, who actually know or suspect the atheist position is correct and continue to be religious regardless, are in the minority I think."

[ QUOTE ]
The Twenty-Second Chapter
Thoughts on the Misery of Man

WHEREVER you are, wherever you go, you are miserable unless you turn to God. So why be dismayed when things do not happen as you wish and desire? Is there anyone who has everything as he wishes? No—neither I, nor you, nor any man on earth. There is no one in the world, be he Pope or king, who does not suffer trial and anguish.

Who is the better off then? Surely, it is the man who will suffer something for God. Many unstable and weak-minded people say: “See how well that man lives, how rich, how great he is, how powerful and mighty.” But you must lift up your eyes to the riches of heaven and realize that the material goods of which they speak are nothing. These things are uncertain and very burdensome because they are never possessed without anxiety and fear. Man’s happiness does not consist in the possession of abundant goods; a very little is enough.

Living on earth is truly a misery. The more a man desires spiritual life, the more bitter the 37 present becomes to him, because he understands better and sees more clearly the defects, the corruption of human nature. To eat and drink, to watch and sleep, to rest, to labor, and to be bound by other human necessities is certainly a great misery and affliction to the devout man, who would gladly be released from them and be free from all sin. Truly, the inner man is greatly burdened in this world by the necessities of the body, and for this reason the Prophet prayed that he might be as free from them as possible, when he said: “From my necessities, O Lord, deliver me.”77 Ps. 34:17.

But woe to those who know not their own misery, and greater woe to those who love this miserable and corruptible life. Some, indeed, can scarcely procure its necessities either by work or by begging; yet they love it so much that, if they could live here always, they would care nothing for the kingdom of God.

How foolish and faithless of heart are those who are so engrossed in earthly things as to relish nothing but what is carnal! Miserable men indeed, for in the end they will see to their sorrow how cheap and worthless was the thing they loved.

The saints of God and all devout friends of Christ did not look to what pleases the body nor to the things that are popular from time to time. Their whole hope and aim centered on the everlasting 38good. Their whole desire pointed upward to the lasting and invisible realm, lest the love of what is visible drag them down to lower things.

Do not lose heart, then, my brother, in pursuing your spiritual life. There is yet time, and your hour is not past. Why delay your purpose? Arise! Begin at once and say: “Now is the time to act, now is the time to fight, now is the proper time to amend.”

When you are troubled and afflicted, that is the time to gain merit. You must pass through water and fire before coming to rest. Unless you do violence to yourself you will not overcome vice.

So long as we live in this fragile body, we can neither be free from sin nor live without weariness and sorrow. Gladly would we rest from all misery, but in losing innocence through sin we also lost true blessedness. Therefore, we must have patience and await the mercy of God until this iniquity passes, until mortality is swallowed up in life.

How great is the frailty of human nature which is ever prone to evil! Today you confess your sins and tomorrow you again commit the sins which you confessed. One moment you resolve to be careful, and yet after an hour you act as though you had made no resolution.

We have cause, therefore, because of our frailty and feebleness, to humble ourselves and never think anything great of ourselves. Through neglect we may quickly lose that which by God’s grace we 39have acquired only through long, hard labor. What, eventually, will become of us who so quickly grow lukewarm? Woe to us if we presume to rest in peace and security when actually there is no true holiness in our lives. It would be beneficial for us, like good novices, to be instructed once more in the principles of a good life, to see if there be hope of amendment and greater spiritual progress in the future.




« Prev Thoughts on the Misery of Man Next »

This book has been accessed more than 480767 times since June 1, 2005.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thomas a Kempis-"The Imitation of Christ"

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Those on this forum almost certainly underestimate the number of people who would live in quiet desperation without their religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh I think I disagree with this. Aren't some of the world's most secular countries also the healthiest, happiest, and most prosperous? Are all these people actually living pleasant long healthy lives of quiet desperation?

I also think you underestimate the ability of an intelligent person to get over it once he finally realizes he was wrong all along. I'm guessing the majority of atheists on this forum were once believers. Sure it hurts when you realize you've been swindled. But you move on.

As for all the poor people starving in Africa, etc. - I suppose religion might give them some thread of hope for a better life after this one's over. But that's not a product of religion being good, it's a product of their horrible lives. Do something to cure their misery on earth and religion won't be so necessary to them.

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

carlo,

What a horrible view of life. The author needs a good kick in the pants.

There are many things which make life wonderful even for the most spiritual of men. To suggest that life on earth is misery betrays a lack of imagination, a lack of spirit, a lack of courage, and a lack of heart. Perhaps the author is so depressed because he sucks at life, or is so focussed on the magical superplace awaiting him that he doesn't realize or appreciate the gift of life.

Anyway, I would be embarrassed to read or quote that as a Christian, and from a quick google it appears that this is an influential Christian works. Yikes.

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its a continuum. The less intelligent you are, the less preposterous your specific religion is to you, and the less likely your belief is a symptom of unhappiness that would manifest itself if the religion was taken away from you. More intelligent people who believe these specifics are more likely to suffer if they were forced to admit to themselves that they are ridiculous to be so sure of religious details. (Unless that belief is stopping them from being great scientists or gamblers). Since it is mainly this category of theist that frequent this forum, I don't think I want to try to convince them of the error of their ways anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think "the error of their ways" doesnt stem from the belief in God, it stems from the certainty with which that belief is held.

In my opinion, encouraging people to doubt their beliefs without necessarily abandoning them has almost exclusively positive consequences.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David Sklansky FTW!

Nice post Mempho. I even have a hard time seeing Judas in hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the Bible, Hell is described in multiple verses as being eternal, everlasting, & for ever & ever.......what is the meaning of those words???

[/ QUOTE ]

The same as the meaning of the bible? Which is to say, almost no meaning.

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where I come from about 50% of the populace are atheist, 50% theist and maybe a fifth of them practicing theists - I honestly am not seeing any large lack of happiness.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where is this and what would you figure is the current fertility rate in this cohort/country/culture/commune?

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

Phil,

As background, the book was written for the religious(monks) during the 14th century. As noted in the introduction, this book is seen as the most influential book in Christianity aside from the Bible. He mentions Thomas More, General Gordon(?), Ignatius Loyola, John Wesley, Francis Xavier, and Dr.Johnson as but a few of the thousands who have acknowledged their debt to this "golden work".

It does have an ascetic underlay but still speaks volumes to any and all of those who see suffering in the world. The background of "My kingdom is Not of this World" permeates the book. David hints that there is more suffering in the world than we realize and it is to this that Thomas A Kempis speaks. I find it strengthening to no end and I do not commiserate on the woes of others and myself.

Christianity is not about "happiness" in this life but fatalism is also not present. In the Christian exegesis strength, courage and Love is sought in our working the earth and seeking Christ. Quite an ennobling work but it is possible to take issue with it.

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

Phil, vhawk -

Just face it: you guys are too smart, too successful, and just generally too good-at-life to understand religion. Let's hope that never changes. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="red">DS</font> -

Yep, most people would maximize net happiness by never being born. But 2400 years and still Sophocles says it best: "Oh, wretched, ephemeral race, children of chance and misery, why do you compel me to tell you what it would be most expedient for you not to hear? What is the best of all is utterly beyond your reach: not to be born, not to be, to be nothing. But the second best for you is---to die soon." (Silenus in Oedipus at Colonus.)

Re: A Not Nice Clarification
 

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Your points are fine, but I disagree that most people have religious beliefs to prevent misery. They have them because they're stupid, brainwashed, non committed, or socially conditioned.

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Can you expand on the "non committed" category and how that leads to religious beliefs?

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

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David Sklansky FTW!

Nice post Mempho. I even have a hard time seeing Judas in hell.

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In the Bible, Hell is described in multiple verses as being eternal, everlasting, &amp; for ever &amp; ever.......what is the meaning of those words???

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The same as the meaning of the bible? Which is to say, almost no meaning.

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Wow.....that's so deep...so insightful...how do you do it??

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

http://www.newspolls.org/story.php?story_id=53

"An even stronger factor is the power of organized religion --any religion--on a sense of well-being.

"Although their numbers were small, Jewish participants in the poll were the most likely of any group to say they are very happy. Protestants--especially self-identified "born again" evangelicals--also report a high rate of contentment.

"Sixty percent of people who have recently attended worship services at a church, synagogue or mosque say they are very happy, compared to 46 percent of people who have not publicly worshiped and 44 percent who have no religious preferences."

Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
 

David,

Most of your posts are either correct, or are incorrect, but show good reasoning. This post shows neither.
Notice, I'm not saying you are wrong, but merely that the style of this OP is very out of character for you.