I fold pairs a lot
 

Hollywood park 15/30


I raise k8s in the CO, and I get called by SB and BB.

Flop K7Jr

2 checks. I bet. SB calls.

Turn: K7J3r
Check, bet, call.

River: K7J39
I get a weird feeling like I'm gonna get CRed, but I bet anyway and get insta-checkraised and villain announces it in a louder than normal voice. I'm guessing he was just excited or trying to protect his action.

Anyway, villain is mostly passive, and he's also incredibly loose, so basically everything that could have me beaten is in his range here. There's no chance he has a worse king. He's not crazy enough to call my on the flop and turn with absolutely nothing and then CR with air, and if he had a draw, then he prob made a a pair.
Like if he had 89 or T9 then he made a pair on the end and missed his gutshot, so he would check-call.
His most likely hand in my mind was 97, either suited or unsuited, because I'm not 100% sure he peels turn with a gutshot in this size pot. He could have a gutshot though with T8.

Anyway, my Q is: what is the minimum hand I should call with here?

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

looks like he has QT

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

QT. But then you would only split.

OK seriously. To call I think you have to beat J9 but I would expect to mostly lose. Aside from QT (which I really think he has), I would expect to see K9, J9, and 99, followed by a slow played 77 and 33. I think you would have heard from two pairs not involving the 9 before the river (and also aside from KJ and possibly J7s why would the SB call with those other hands???).

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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looks like he has QT

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oops. should have said that in the OP, but I made the decision quick at the table and just wrote everything that I was thinking at the time. It wasn't much of a thinking decision to I didn't even think of QT then, but yeah, that should be more likely than T8 and 97, and K7, and J7.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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(and also aside from KJ and possibly J7s why would the SB call with those other hands???).

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from OP

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villain is mostly passive, and he's also incredibly loose,

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Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

I'd call with T8, raise QT, and fold everything else.

-Michael

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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I'd call with T8, raise QT, and fold everything else.

-Michael

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I would probably call with sets too, like KK/JJ but expect to lose a decent chunk of the time.

Folding a pair-no kicker here is standard, Snowball.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

So everyone here would fold to this c/r with, say, KJ? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

The most obvious explanation is that the 9 helped him. And that he had something on the flop. So his minimum hand is 9-7. I'd call with anything that beats that.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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So everyone here would fold to this c/r with, say, KJ? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Definitely not folding a good 2 pair here. I agree with Andy; anything that beats middle two, I'm calling with.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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The most obvious explanation is that the 9 helped him. And that he had something on the flop. So his minimum hand is 9-7. I'd call with anything that beats that.

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As usual, andy wins. he had 97, or at least that's what he told me at the cashout window a couple hours later.

I dunno why you guys are all gung ho about folding everything except sets. I said he was mostly passive, not that he was the type to call with the pure nuts b/c "it's prob a chop" (this happened to me at 15/30 hu a few sessions ago)
He's def popping me with any 2 pair here.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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Folding a pair-no kicker here is standard, Snowball.

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yeah it felt standard and not a tough decision for me to make. That's why my question was "what is minimum hand to call" which is more or less a math problem I think.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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looks like he has QT

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I really need to write down boards at the casino on the spot. I think it was a six on the flop which would be the reason why I didn't think "oh, QT" at the time.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

sorry guys, I don't mean to be this sloppy with my OPs.
Expect better from me in the future [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

One other thing. This might sound ridiculous but I think it's true: when a guy makes the nuts on the river, that is, if he had Q-T, he will generally bet out. You would think he would bet because he's trying to win 3 bets on the river, but that's not it. It's that he sees his hand as "obvious" when he makes K-Q-J-T-9 and therefore he feels he should bet. Whereas if he makes 9-7, he's more likely to check-raise because it's less obvious that the 9 helped him; in his mind, it's more of a "surprise" hand worthy of a check-raise.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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One other thing. This might sound ridiculous but I think it's true: when a guy makes the nuts on the river, that is, if he had Q-T, he will generally bet out. You would think he would bet because he's trying to win 3 bets on the river, but that's not it. It's that he sees his hand as "obvious" when he makes K-Q-J-T-9 and therefore he feels he should bet. Whereas if he makes 9-7, he's more likely to check-raise because it's less obvious that the 9 helped him; in his mind, it's more of a "surprise" hand worthy of a check-raise.

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andy,

any chance we can get you to put together a 2p2 internet mag article about all these weird truths about the way fishy midstakes B&M players think?
For example, your comment in that one PJ hand about how 3 betting the flop will make it less likely that the players in between will stay with their gutshots on 4th was really bizarre and counterintuitive.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

Maybe. Dynasty's been after me to finish a sketchy article I started a while back. I'm getting lazy in my dotage.

Re: I fold pairs a lot
 

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Definitely not folding a good 2 pair here. I agree with Andy; anything that beats middle two, I'm calling with.

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