Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

I was wondering if it makes sense to not raise with AK preflop in an extremly loose game. The kind of game where a continuation bet on the flop will almost never take it down. Essentially, if you miss, you're probably going to lose the pot.

Opinions? Is this just results based thinking?

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

I would say it's results based thinking. If it's extremely loose IMO just raise more than you usually would preflop. You want to be paid for your premium hands, and if the game is as loose as you say it is you will. Just make them pay more than they should to see cards

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

Most likely my adjustment would be to raise a greater amount here. If you're getting a lot of calls you're not getting much respect, try value betting pre 6 or 7 bb if you need to. You still want to cut the field down somewhat and punish them for their bad play as bet you can.

Also, you can't give up the pot every time you miss. If they're calling stations, then adjust accordingly but AK is still going to be ahead more often than not on most flops. If they're going to call your c-bets regardless, than even an unimproved AK is going to be ahead of their range on a lot of boards.

In this type of game, just tighten up your hands a bit, and push your hands a little harder. Your ranges will be ahead of theirs most of the time... you're bluffs lose a lot of value but you can regain that through more aggressive value betting.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

By raising a greater amount with AK - one also tell the other players one has AK. They can thus play against one perfectly.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
By raising a greater amount with AK - one also tell the other players one has AK. They can thus play against one perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. There are plenty of times when I don't raise w/ AK. If I'm on the button and 3-6 have limped in, there's nothing wrong w/ seeing the flop cheaply. In limit though, I raise 100% of the time.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

definitely result based thinking. you raise with AK.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

you're saying that when you raise AK you get too many callers and they will call your cbet with any part of the flop. So you don't have to cbet if its a multiway pot, but you still want to raise it so when you do hit a flop, the pot will be bigger and you can make more money.

You have the best hand preflop, you want to get as much money in preflop as you can. simple.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By raising a greater amount with AK - one also tell the other players one has AK. They can thus play against one perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. There are plenty of times when I don't raise w/ AK. If I'm on the button and 3-6 have limped in, there's nothing wrong w/ seeing the flop cheaply. In limit though, I raise 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

hhhhhhhhahahhhahahahahahah
hahahhahahaaaaaaaaahaha
hahhahah
ha.
ha.
hahaahah

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering if it makes sense to not raise with AK preflop in an extremly loose game. The kind of game where a continuation bet on the flop will almost never take it down. Essentially, if you miss, you're probably going to lose the pot.

Opinions? Is this just results based thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are in a loose game that generally sees a raised pot you may consider making a large 3 bet just as you would with AA or KK either in position, from the blinds or an early position limp reraise. This mixes up your play and even in a loose game should ususally get you heads up on the flop where your continuation bet will get more respect.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
By raising a greater amount with AK - one also tell the other players one has AK. They can thus play against one perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they can't, because as I pointed out you're raising generally larger amounts against this crowd in general. It's a good way to take advantage of these players, and it's aimed to get you more value on your good hands.

There's almost always going to be more value in raising AK preflop than just calling with it. These players are playing too many hands too loosely, exploit them for it. It's easy to lose a lot of money with TPTK in an unraised pot with AK, especially if there are three other players in the pot.

You can obviously mix it up now and again, but as this situation is described there's really no need to try to get too fancy. Your complex deception schemes are going to be worthless against loose-weak type players who are generally pretty bad players. Keep in mind that it's harder to make a monster hidden hand you can get paid with when you have AK (as opposed to a hand like 44 flopping a set, or making a odd straight with 76, which are less obvious).

Now, defining your range here isn't always the end of the world anyway. You can fold a few pairs with a decent 3-bet, and tons of hands whose live cards are still not that far behind you. Taking down the pot preflop is just fine with AK, and frankly there are tons of occasions where you can play it for stacks preflop as well.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

lol, I don't know what I was thinking. Every now and then I have some ridiculous ideas about poker, and then after talking to someone relativley intelligent, I go "wow, that was stupid."

Agree with you guys, I'll just raise bigger than usual pre and take advantage of the bad play.

This reminds me of when I first started playing this game, one of the players kept hitting flushes on me, despite me betting fairly big amounts. So I tell my other friend, "next time, I'll just bet really small, and if he calls I'll know he has the flush draw, so I don't lose as much", and of course my friend turns to me and goes "uhh, why don't you just bet larger than usual, so he's always getting really bad odds to call, and he'll over-pay to hit the flush"...Of course I immedietly realized my stupidy :P

Anywho, thanks for the answers.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

not raising with AK is pretty bad unless you can limp reraise with it and get called by worse a decent amount of the time. even then, making that your standard play would be terrible.

just raise, double barrel more or check raise flops if you're getting floated a lot. there are plenty of other ways to adjust to these types of players, don't adjust by not raising your good hands.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By raising a greater amount with AK - one also tell the other players one has AK. They can thus play against one perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. There are plenty of times when I don't raise w/ AK. If I'm on the button and 3-6 have limped in, there's nothing wrong w/ seeing the flop cheaply. In limit though, I raise 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about cranking it up big time and making the limpers fold or pay waaay too much to see the flop? Taking a flop 4-7 way with AK is just about the worst way to play the hand.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

If the game is loose, I would just raise a bit more as a standard raise.

Also, then you can stop c-betting with AK in a loose game with many pf limp-callers. Only bet if you have TPTK+ or a good draw (would be flush in this case). In a loose preflop game you can play the flop "fit or fold" if you get enough callers, since with two callers you do win often enough just by hitting the flop TPTK. In a heads up pot hand you could not do that since you only hit the flop about once in three times. I mean if you know for a fact that the opponents will call with anything (medium pair+) on the flop, you should not bet with air.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

I was in the same situation this weekend. Almost 2 buy-ins because they kept calling and i couldn´t connect. AK biggest looser over 2k hands..
I am trying 3 things now:
-If i think they will call anywhere, i let them pay. 6 BBs not enough ? Make it 8. Still 2 callers ? Make it 10.
-As long as there are always 3 players calling, raising should bring an immediate profit.
-Smaller c-bets. A little bit over 1/2 potsize. It seems to me that they make their decissions according to their cards, not their odds.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

Christ, I'll raise 67o OTB vs limpers. Tards who don't raise AK, and that have such a polarized range are so easy to play against.

To the poster above me, don't c-bet into 5 calling stations.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By raising a greater amount with AK - one also tell the other players one has AK. They can thus play against one perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. There are plenty of times when I don't raise w/ AK. If I'm on the button and 3-6 have limped in, there's nothing wrong w/ seeing the flop cheaply. In limit though, I raise 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about cranking it up big time and making the limpers fold or pay waaay too much to see the flop? Taking a flop 4-7 way with AK is just about the worst way to play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying never raise. But you have to mix it up. If you always raise w/ it, good players will know you DON'T have it if you don't raise. I mean c'mon. How many times do you see nits only raise p/f with pocket aces and you stack them because they overplay the hand? If you are playing $1/2 NL and 5 limp in and you make it $15-20 or whatever, a good player will see the raise for what it is. He'll call knowing whether or not the flop hit you. If you are in a passive game, you can limp in w/ position and bet if it's checked to you because you will have the best hand. And if someone has top pair on a K 9 5 board, they will chase to the river anyway because they won't put you on AK. Again, I'm not saying never raise w/ it. Occasionally. As in like 5% of the time.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By raising a greater amount with AK - one also tell the other players one has AK. They can thus play against one perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. There are plenty of times when I don't raise w/ AK. If I'm on the button and 3-6 have limped in, there's nothing wrong w/ seeing the flop cheaply. In limit though, I raise 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

seeing the flop cheaply with AK... there's a thought... why not limp with AA to get a cheap flop? someone might flop a set, maybe quads.
also, might be better to just fold AK preflop. after all AK is just two cards, two random cards, not even a pair. i made up my mind. i'm folding AK preflop from now on.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

holy f***ing [censored]. this forum is worst than i thought, this is an absolute abomination.

I'm being brutally honest here, everyone who posted in this thread almost assuredly sucks at poker. You might want to limit the amount of time you play casually, but there is a fundamental lack of knowledge surrounding the core basics of game concept generated by the players in this thread.

You, all, are bad at poker. That is all. I'll be damned if one of my opponents ever says, "he raised, he must have AK."

That's because I don't suck at poker, and I know the importance of image and meta-game.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

AK is very commonly the best hand preflop. there for you want to get a nice raise in while you have the best hand (this hand will be the best on the flop more times than it won't hence the raise hahah) ... This is so basic, obv you can change it up occasionally so your not to exploitable but this is so basic it's hurting my head to read this.

However, i don't think the issue here is how to play AK preflop, its really how bad most people in this thread play AK POSTFLOP.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

By not raising AK, you are giving players the correct odds to call with a wide variety of hands.

Even if you do hit an A or K on the flop, you still may have a tough decision because of the wide range you could be facing.

So if you want to allow bad loose players to have correct odds to play any two cards and if you want to have tough decisions on the flop, then limp with AK.

In answer to your subject question, I would say yes sometimes you can limp with AK. However, that might be in a very specific game with TAGS, nits and tricky players who are going to raise behind you and you now have an option to 3 bet or smoothcall.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

you have taken the concept of not overplaying a hand to the extreme in this post. AK is not a relatively weak holding, unless you have a weak tight mentality.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

false. it shows that you want to extract value from a strong hand.

[ QUOTE ]

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to their bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

[/ QUOTE ]

assume you meant the sb, but lol. raising a hand that is very likely to be ahead of your opponent's range is not bluffing.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

Holy crap, it's pretty simple. Here's what to do in your average loose-passive game.

Raise 4BB + 1BB/limper preflop in an unraised pot, or you can make it 5BB or 6BB+ if you keep getting callers. Why? 2 reasons that I know of. 1)To get it down to HU or 3way at worst. 2) For value. C-bet every flop but Do not C-bet in 3way pots that are drawy or in any pots that have 4 or more players. Unless you hit LDO. Double barrel if you think your opponent is the type that "calls flop and folds turn." And go from there.

I recommend to keep C-betting in HU flops even if you missing and they keep calling because it gives you an aggro image to the donkeys.

Also, in these games you should be raising any PP or suited connector like you would with AK.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

To answer the OP's question I would almost always raise AK preflop. I say almost always because obviously there are no "always" situations in poker.

Some other thoughts relating to the topic of this thread:

I don't believe that tightening up starting requirements is a good way to play a loose game, especially if the players in question are calling stations. If im in late position and see multiple limpers in front of me, I will limp more liberally to punish the limpers. I will not raise marginal hands because that is only going to build a bigger pot in which i might only have a slight edge. I still want to adhere to a solid foundation of playing small pot poker. By loosening up starting requirements preflop and playing a lot of small pots in position, I believe that will maximize the relative skill advantage over the rest of the players in the game

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

Look: Its very simple: AK is a very powerful semi-bluff hand. In position, on most boards, you should fear very few hands. What you should fear is taking a flop against 5 opponents so that you are now pretty much sure that someone hit the flop. It plays very well against all hands except AA and KK. If you are too weak -tight to get aggressive with it, you are too weak, period.

And for those of you saying that you need to limp with AK to "mix it up," you are (censored) insane. Try jacking 78s or 89s or sheer dog(censored) up instead, and people won't be able to figure out so easily when you have AA and KK or AK, and you might get action. And I play 23/17/3. What are you guys playing --3/2/1?

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you are going to play AK this way, I would agree it is a very weak holding. By refusing to play it aggressively preflop, you are begging to be outflopped. By refusing to make a continuation bet postflop, you are telegraphing to the guy with a PP who also missed the flop that he is ahead, when he otherwise would have been playing "hit to win." But now you are playing "hit to win." Otherwise know as "passive." Just as importantly, if you are incapable of making a semi-bluff with AK, good luck getting paid off when you hit your two pair or set. I look forward to further instruction, perhaps turning AA and KK into losers, as well.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

ok i read a few of the responses all have good points!!
in a tournament i would call hoping for someone to raise behind me and then see how many people call after that!!
and when action is on me re raise making a loose game expensive!! to play.
it depends on the image of the raiser!!! but for the most part i would say exploit your image with ak and maximize your earnings with it.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
not raising with AK is pretty bad unless you can limp reraise with it and get called by worse a decent amount of the time. even then, making that your standard play would be terrible.

just raise, double barrel more or check raise flops if you're getting floated a lot. there are plenty of other ways to adjust to these types of players, don't adjust by not raising your good hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

/thread

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

there was a thread on this a long long time ago. or something dumb like that. some old timers might be able to remember it.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

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Playing AK the way you suggest is a great way to get yourself stacked when you hit top pair and get beaten by some junk 2-pair hand that would have folded if you had raised.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

Wow, I disagree with you limpers. Give me your dream situation that is happening when you limp with AK.

See the flop cheaply? This is like chapter 1 of every book you didn't read.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

I have to say here in my defence that I did not say anything about limping AK preflop. I always raise it, most of the time I 3-bet it. The point was what to do in multiway pots on the flop.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

It's so common that posters on this board stretch what is said to perportions it's not intended to be at. I raise with this hand most of the time. Maybe the post was too long for many to remember that. I do think situations where limpoor limping with AK exist about 10-15% of the time. If it's close I'll often raise with it anyway. However, I want to play this hand after the flop and I want to wing a pot. I don't consider this a grinding hand and I don't consider it a monster pot hand. It's somewhere inbetween. The amount of the raise and the number of likely callers has direct impact on the size of the pot which inturn impacts the size of the flop bet, turn bet and any potential river bet. I'm just saying the hand is situational, it's not a raise every time you get it, just most of the time. Players that routinely limp with big hands are donks, I'd presume there are not too many of those taking the time to read and study poker on this site. ;-)

Dave

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

goddamnit i hate this thread so much....

raise AK in those loose spots for value, u dont have to c bet 4 way or even 3 way if the flop is a mid coordinated one and u have no piece of it

not raising and then making the Pot to stack ratio very small with AK spells trouble/ no value, a cheap flop is exactly what you DONT want, esp if u are going to play TPTK to the felt after u let joe idiot come in and then chase postflop with good implied odds... and then u complain after its laughable.

so much misinformation in these, its too hard to go through and point out whats retarded about each thing said and rebuttal it... its why I gave up and started posting far far less

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

Re-reading the posts in this thread, I generally agree with the posts made by Stringsteen87, Bantam222, Mark1808, El Hombre, Shoota, LarryLaughs, CalPoly, PantsonFire, Tarheeljks, Jailblazers, jstills, WoolyGimp and myself all seem to agree in principle, so there's really no reason for a lot of the frustration.

GeeBee, regarding your posts in particular: there are some points that are correct, and yet other points that reflect a weak-tight perspective (particularly in cash games). In any case, making comments like "only so-and-so here knows how to play AK" and other snide remarks really aren't adding anything and certainly don't defend your arguments. I'm familiar with some of the more regular PT posters in this thread, and have generally found their opinions pretty sound.

Remember that the OP was asking about raising AK preflop. No one said that once you do that you are obligated to bet into a bunch of calling stations when you miss a flop.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

People don't lose with AK because they didn't raise pre-flop. They lose with it because they don't know how to play it after the flop. If you play w/ the same people over and over again, they will pick up on your tendencies. It's very simple. If you always raise with it, when you don't raise good players will know you DON'T have it. So if the flop comes 10-J-Q, and they hold top 2 pair, they will know you don't have AK because you didn't raise. That's why if I'm on the button, OCCASIONALLY I will limp in with it. Just to mix up my game.

If you have 500 BB, and you are getting stacked w/ AK because you hit TPTK; I'm sorry, but you do not know how to play AK post flop. You got stacked because you suck at poker, not because you didn't raise pre-flop.

If you are in a weak game and everyone else sucks, then yea always raise with it. But if there are good players at the table with you, you need to mix it up.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

No one said anything about being 500bb deep, nor automatically stacking off if you make TPTK with effective stacks like that.

The part I and other posters disagree with are:

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There are plenty of times when I don't raise w/ AK. If I'm on the button and 3-6 have limped in, there's nothing wrong w/ seeing the flop cheaply.

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So if the flop comes 10-J-Q, and they hold top 2 pair, they will know you don't have AK because you didn't raise. That's why if I'm on the button, OCCASIONALLY I will limp in with it.

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The part I'm trying to get here is how you think limping AK after 3-6 limpers is going to get you the kind of value that cutting down the field is going to get you. As is you have position, but you've got a handful of people all going to an unraised pot. You've hidden your AK, but at the same time you have little idea as to what everyone else's range is.

To your second point, you're virtually never flopping the nut straight with AK, and if you flop a draw to the broadway striaght it's going to be a gutshot. Further, how much value is in it for you if you do hit? How many hands can pay you off on a board like QJT? In an unraised pot with that board, anyone not holding K9 is likely to have a least equity against you, say with a set or flush draw or something, which further reduces the value of nut-peddling AK.

And, if it's a suited AK and you make a flush, it's going to be harder to get paid since the best someone else can have is a Q-high flush.

As far as what they do in good games, I don't really play much full ring, but those games don't tend to have 3-6 limpers by the time you get to the button without someone coming in for a raise. The "top two pair" guy in your example is going to go broke on THAT flop with 500bb? I don't think he will, especially if he's supposed to be a good player - even if he does remove AK form your range he's still beat by way too much to stack off.

Now, by raising you do partially define your hand, but this doesn't reduce your range to just AK. You should be popping a number of hands here as well - which will help you in the the deception department you're putting so much emphasis on. No one says you can only 3-bet AK here, hell after several limpers there are quite a few hands decent players can blow up on the button. If people are putting you on a premium hand here, you're range is too tight.

You can limp AK in some scenarios, but I don't see this as being one of them at all. If you're going to forego a pretty profitable play (which raising here is), at least do so in favor of an even more profitable play or some kind of metagame advantage which I'm not really seeing here.

If you're ultimate goal was to be deceptive, hell you could just fold AK everytime you get it. No one would ever expect that... but that's not your ultimate goal.

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

In short, what I'm asking is:

Where are you extracting more value by limping AK in your example, as opposed to making the more standard play of raising with it? Assuming standard table conditions with competent players, and not freak 500bb effective stacks or other oddball scenarios.

Second, when you do make TPTK, how much heat are you willing to take with it in an unraised pot? Since you won't get credit for having AK, wouldn't that mean that you're more likley to get action from TPGK hands as well?

Third, what kind of flop are you hoping for (apart from the nut straight)?

Re: Don\'t raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?
 

always raise...no doubt