Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

villain is theNorfman. no reads really. looked him up on poker db and he is +55k or so over ~800 tourneys.

if he had just shoved flop i wuda snap called but he had to go and minraise.

shove or fold?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t50/t100
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t10825
UTG+1: t14300
MP1: t10425
MP2: t8636
MP3: t9925
djk123: t8775
Button: t10314
SB: t10375
BB: t6425

Pre-flop: (9 players) djk123 is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 raises to t300</font>, <font color="#cc0000">djk123 raises to t1000</font>, Button calls t1000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t1450)</font>, 3 folds.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t2450, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">djk123 bets t1600</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to t3200</font>, djk123

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

i think he can have QQ+ here, your prob good to get it in.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

This is a weird line to take with AA, cold calling the reraise and then min-raising the flop. He should of folded 88, and he'd be a moron to raise/call with A3,34s utg+2

Shove

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a weird line to take with AA, cold calling the reraise and then min-raising the flop. He should of folded 88, and he'd be a moron to raise/call with A3,34s utg+2

Shove

[/ QUOTE ]

the original raiser folded, the button flatted it.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think he can have JJ+ here, your prob good to get it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

i get it all in pretty quickly here

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

def push.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a weird line to take with AA, cold calling the reraise and then min-raising the flop. He should of folded 88, and he'd be a moron to raise/call with A3,34s utg+2

Shove

[/ QUOTE ]

the original raiser folded, the button flatted it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I see it now..misread before.

I would still get it in here, this can be done with JJ, your only really worried about 88 here. AA would of deff. reraised in a multi-way pot PF

edit- and 88 doesnt belong here either, very easy fold after a reaise and a reraise with the original raiser still left to act

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

I don't see him having a hand that can have you beat here. This looks like JJ to me.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

no with these stacks It is entirely possible for villain to flat preflop with AA, still are ahead of his range tho, and even if he doesnt do this with JJ, he certainly takes the same line with QQ making u atleast even money vs his range plus you already have deadmoney+money invested in the pot making this a pretty huge edge, snap push

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a weird line to take with AA, cold calling the reraise and then min-raising the flop. He should of folded 88, and he'd be a moron to raise/call with A3,34s utg+2

Shove

[/ QUOTE ]

the original raiser folded, the button flatted it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I see it now..misread before.

I would still get it in here, this can be done with JJ, your only really worried about 88 here. AA would of deff. reraised in a multi-way pot PF

edit- and 88 doesnt belong here either, very easy fold after a reaise and a reraise with the original raiser still left to act

[/ QUOTE ]


AA can not be ruled out here. I'm not really worried about 88 tho.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

Whatever, Id get it allin and hope for the best.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

e z all in/ call neer fold

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

Minreraise back, plz

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

Doesn't shoving fold out QQ-TT and get called by AA (and 88 if he's bad enough to have it)?

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't shoving fold out QQ-TT and get called by AA (and 88 if he's bad enough to have it)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody raise/folds this flop with the aforementioned hands. Shove please.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

This does seem like a TT/JJ+ (i dont know the guy) and he is trying to find out if his overpair is good (he may fold to a 3b ai here). The question is whether we think he will stack off with TT-QQ here when he min-raised you.
1/3 of me wants to raise to 5k
1/3 of me wants to shove
1/3 of me wants to flat and c/c ai on turn or lead depending.

Here, I think I am shoving b/c you are aggro and &gt;50% of my stack is if I make this call. Damn, now im thinking about calling and insta- shoving turn b/c pot will be like 8k in pot and you would have 4k left would be hot.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

shoving is exactly the same thing as calling or raising some other ammount.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

hell noez

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

even though he is obv a thinking player... how fast did he minraise? an immediate minraise in this spot looks more like aa or 88, but if he thought about it for a while he could have called w a pp for set value and decided to make a littttle move on this harmless flop. If i were you i could flat call and call a shove on the turn

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

I really like a flat call. Either shove turn or C/C his AI on turn. What cards are we scared of on the turn?

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really like a flat call. Either shove turn or C/C his AI on turn. What cards are we scared of on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
doesnt make any differense, it will be &lt; 1/2 psb left, fold or push is the only reasonable options.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think he can have JJ+ here, your prob good to get it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

I don't see how you can fold and flatting makes no sense so just shove it now.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

alright so it seems like everyone said fold, and normally i wud agree esp in the million. but i actually folded in the hand after tanking for a while.

based on the preflop call i put him on JJ+ or TT+. on the flop i'd expect him to just shove JJ-QQ. the only hand that made sense for me after the minraise was AA. i dunno. it was def an unusual laydown for me but i just cudnt put him on anything but aa

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

Norfman is weird tho he could easily be minraising to induce. also the stats i have on him are like 15/3 over 100 or so its not like he plays superstandard

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

oh ya thats another thing. if he had been a loser on pokerdb there's no way i would have folded. i didn't really know how he played, but his results seemed to indicate that he wasnt some retard

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but his results seemed to indicate that he wasnt some retard

[/ QUOTE ]

but his play in this hand "seems to indicate" something else [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]...I think sticking it in is best, AA is definitely weighted more than QQ/JJ, but you're getting some pot odds to make up for that.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

dont fold

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

if you cant narrow his range enough, what about flatting flop to induce the turn bet? If you're sure his range is tight enough that he stacks off with everything he may take this line with (TT/JJ+ I guess) than id just shove flop, but without that confidence in the read I like calling flop minraise and calling turn.

edit: from the looks of peoples reads on him his range won't h really ever be wide enough to have to worry about flatting flop&gt;shoving

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i get it all in pretty quickly here

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

i cant fold this in the million i shove without much thought.a thought that just entered in my mind just this moment is that decent players will min raise tt-qq here so they can see where they are at and fold to a shove i really really think thats what hes doing so i would just call flop. turn gets tricky though as to whether shove,check,or weak lead idk what i'd do.

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
decent players will min raise tt-qq here so they can see where they are at and fold to a shove i really really think thats what hes doing so i would just call flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

no that's what a braindead player would do

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
alright so it seems like everyone said fold, and normally i wud agree esp in the million. but i actually folded in the hand after tanking for a while.

based on the preflop call i put him on JJ+ or TT+. on the flop i'd expect him to just shove JJ-QQ. the only hand that made sense for me after the minraise was AA. i dunno. it was def an unusual laydown for me but i just cudnt put him on anything but aa

[/ QUOTE ] Then maybe the villain's minraise in this particular situation was a good play, assuming that the villain had something that you could beat, such as JJ or QQ.

The situation in which a min-raise might be better than a push.

1. You are planning to play the hand for all your chips
2. There is a decent possibility that you are behind.
3. If you min-raise, it will be obvious to your opponent that you are pot committed (your opponent should not think that he can get you to fold by pushing over your raise).

If all of those criteria are met, why not min-raise instead of push?

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

Results?

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

even if his range is JJ+ and he takes this line with

AA 100% of the time
KK 100% of the time
QQ 75% of the time
JJ 50% of the time

it's a shove

Re: Mill - fold KK on rag flop?
 

yeah dont fold ever