thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

This hand came up the other day in the sunday mil that got me thinking.

We were down to 200ish people. I had about 35bbs. I had 33 on the button. A guy who had been raising prob 25% of his hands made it 2.5bbs. I wanted to call but everyone in the room told me I was an idiot, so I decided to listen to them and reraise to 8bbs or so.

Assuming the 25% raiser is good, he is prob almost always pushing or folding. Why would I want to turn a hand with some value like 33 into a bluff when I could just call and prob stack the guy on a good flop for me? I think this basically applies to hands like suited connectors as well, and all other hands you would raise and not be too sure what to do, like AJ etc.

Also, while I have you all here, I kinda wanted to talk about small pairs as well. I see these people on tv all the time raising and reraising 22 like its the nuts. I know that I usually fold small pairs from ep and sure dont 3bet all in when them, yet it seems like a lot of people do it. Am I just retarded or do I simply not fully realize the value of small pairs?

Ok...thats it for now. Flame away. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

If he's raising 25% of hands and your in position i'd flat as well, float him, flop some sets and fold the likely flops that hit him.

As for the second part, people don't like to fold pairs ever. Aint news to me!

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

i always choose wrong... it makes me sad

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

3 beting is bad here. You are almost comiting yourself with a 3-bet and you can play 33 way more profitably with flating.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

i really prefer flatting and stacking him on a good flop, floating on applicable flops, or value/bluff getting it in with draws...i think reraising is pretty bad

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

In general, flatcalling with a wide range with 40bb is fine (sometimes even AK!). Part of this is because (as you indicated) against most opponents, whether you want to 3bet/call or 3bet/fold is a greater part of the determination of whether a 3bet is good than is the case with 100 bb (where you are more likely to be called and play a 3bet pot in position). That is, your hot and cold equity versus his preflop 4bet range (as well as his raise/fold frequency) plays a lot more into a proper 3bet range than it does a 3bet range deeper.

Since a big part of playing well in 40bb pots as the caller is knowing when you can win without showdown, as long as you play well flat calling 33 there is better than reraising, because versus an opponent whose raising range is so weak that you can reraise him with any 2 (assuming you would fold 33 to a shove), calling and floating is at least as profitable, especially when you factor in that you can stack his strongest hands when you flop a set.

As for small pairs as resteals, I think the tendency lately is for people to call resteals lighter, which hurts 22 more than it hurts say QJ. Because most of the lighter calls that call QJ don't have it dominated, and stuff like 55 is a coin flip. Being called by a few more coin flip hands is neutral to 22, just like being called by 55 is neutral to QJ, but being called by 55 is more of a disaster for 22 than A7 is for QJ. That there are still way many more high card hands than pairs mitigates this a bit, but as you widen the calling range, the advantange 22 has over QJ gets smaller. That said, 22 is still significantly better against most calling ranges than QJ, although if you make the calling ranges more pair-heavy (as compared with the pokerstove top x% ranges), which better approximates people's actual calling ranges (e.g. Q9s is in the stove top 16% but 55 isn't, although more people call 55 than Q9s), 22 gets weaker.

Versus tight raising ranges, restealing 22 is suicidal, but so is restealing QJ.

I think folding small pairs in EP (nine-handed, spots 1-3) is correct most of the time.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

[ QUOTE ]
In general, flatcalling with a wide range with 40bb is fine (sometimes even AK!). Part of this is because (as you indicated) against most opponents, whether you want to 3bet/call or 3bet/fold is a greater part of the determination of whether a 3bet is good than is the case with 100 bb (where you are more likely to be called and play a 3bet pot in position). That is, your hot and cold equity versus his preflop 4bet range (as well as his raise/fold frequency) plays a lot more into a proper 3bet range than it does a 3bet range deeper.

Since a big part of playing well in 40bb pots as the caller is knowing when you can win without showdown, as long as you play well flat calling 33 there is better than reraising, because versus an opponent whose raising range is so weak that you can reraise him with any 2 (assuming you would fold 33 to a shove), calling and floating is at least as profitable, especially when you factor in that you can stack his strongest hands when you flop a set.

As for small pairs as resteals, I think the tendency lately is for people to call resteals lighter, which hurts 22 more than it hurts say QJ. Because most of the lighter calls that call QJ don't have it dominated, and stuff like 55 is a coin flip. Being called by a few more coin flip hands is neutral to 22, just like being called by 55 is neutral to QJ, but being called by 55 is more of a disaster for 22 than A7 is for QJ. That there are still way many more high card hands than pairs mitigates this a bit, but as you widen the calling range, the advantange 22 has over QJ gets smaller. That said, 22 is still significantly better against most calling ranges than QJ, although if you make the calling ranges more pair-heavy (as compared with the pokerstove top x% ranges), which better approximates people's actual calling ranges (e.g. Q9s is in the stove top 16% but 55 isn't, although more people call 55 than Q9s), 22 gets weaker.

Versus tight raising ranges, restealing 22 is suicidal, but so is restealing QJ.

I think folding small pairs in EP (nine-handed, spots 1-3) is correct most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said, a lot of things I've been thinking about lately summed up nicely.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

I don't like reraising at all.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

I'd rather raise 910o

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

the problem with flat calling small pairs against someone that you feel is opening as high as 25% is that there's always a chance we won't get to see a flop if the sb or bb squeeze, and this is especially bad for us. by no means am i advocating "fold > flat call/reraise," but i've definitely done it a few times lately when i feel like there's no better option because i think there's a good chance a flat call will induce a reraise from the blinds or that if i reraise, there's a good chance i'll have to call a 4-bet shove from the OR or the blinds.

hope that made sense.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

The reraise is bad here. You are putting in almost 25% of your stack. You assume that you fold to a push, but it is actually a close decision whether or not to call, which is a good reason not to reraise.

Also, the reraise puts you in a worse if villain flat calls. He may have an advantage now acting first, rather than you with position. Also, you usually have no idea whether 33 is ahead.

The only outcome you like is if villain folds to the reraise.

As for turning 33 into a bluff, it is not such a good hand anyway and just folding is not terrible, so you are not losing a lot.

I generally like to flat call raises with this stack size. The reraise does simplify your decisions.

The reraise/fold line is more playable with a larger stack of maybe 40xBB.

I think that people tend to flat call too much with 50+xBB. With 33xBB to a small raise, it is harder to reraise.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

I like reraising here because you want to find out where your opponent is at in the hand and you know if he calls or reraises then he has you beat. You need to protect your hand against the overcards.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

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I like reraising here because you want to find out where your opponent is at in the hand and you know if he calls or reraises then he has you beat. You need to protect your hand against the overcards.

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Don't understand. If villain has AK or AQ, he is probably pushing and he doesn't have you beat. If fact, you are the favorite. It isn't stated what position villain raised from, but he could push lighter than AQ if he thinks he has FE.

If you are going to reraise with the intention of folding to a reraise, I like a reraise to like 7xBB. It saves you money, and villain doesn't know if you are doing this because you are folding to the reraise or because you want action.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like reraising here because you want to find out where your opponent is at in the hand and you know if he calls or reraises then he has you beat. You need to protect your hand against the overcards.

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Don't understand. If villain has AK or AQ, he is probably pushing and he doesn't have you beat. If fact, you are the favorite. It isn't stated what position villain raised from, but he could push lighter than AQ if he thinks he has FE.

If you are going to reraise with the intention of folding to a reraise, I like a reraise to like 7xBB. It saves you money, and villain doesn't know if you are doing this because you are folding to the reraise or because you want action.

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Betgo,

I'm still not sure if your chip outlay is out of proportion to a reasonable expectation.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like reraising here because you want to find out where your opponent is at in the hand and you know if he calls or reraises then he has you beat. You need to protect your hand against the overcards.

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Don't understand. If villain has AK or AQ, he is probably pushing and he doesn't have you beat. If fact, you are the favorite. It isn't stated what position villain raised from, but he could push lighter than AQ if he thinks he has FE.

If you are going to reraise with the intention of folding to a reraise, I like a reraise to like 7xBB. It saves you money, and villain doesn't know if you are doing this because you are folding to the reraise or because you want action.

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Betgo,

I'm still not sure if your chip outlay is out of proportion to a reasonable expectation.

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Don't understand. I thought you said reraise/fold. You mean you chip outlay is too much if you reraise or if you flat call?

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

Nevermind, my last two posts were purely in jest. I think jon is absolutely correct, reraising here is really bad.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with flat calling small pairs against someone that you feel is opening as high as 25% is that there's always a chance we won't get to see a flop if the sb or bb squeeze, and this is especially bad for us. by no means am i advocating "fold > flat call/reraise," but i've definitely done it a few times lately when i feel like there's no better option because i think there's a good chance a flat call will induce a reraise from the blinds or that if i reraise, there's a good chance i'll have to call a 4-bet shove from the OR or the blinds.

hope that made sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my favorite new things is calling squeezes light with marginal hands.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

30-35 bbs is a very tough stack facing a raise, and you should evaluate your holdings in only 2 groups, with a possible 3rd group in a particular case...

1.Those with which you are willing to get all your chips in preflop against the open raiser. (You will be geting a bit less than 2-1 if you get 4 bet)

and

2.All other possible starting hands.

If you have a group 1 hand then you can reraise pre against all players, with the added vig of giving the impression that you do have enough to fold, which may get some marginal holdings to 4 bet you.

If you have a group 2 hand you can reraise too, but there is no difference between 33 and 62 off in this spot because you are folding to a 4 bet anyway. However, group 2 hands should only be reraised with when the original raiser has a large gap between his opening range and his 4 bet range.

Jon you assume that the guy is opening wide with top 25% which is meaningful, but it is quite important what % of this 25% he will be 4 betting. There are guys like this out there, players who dont mind opening anything but fold to any pressure. The people who correctly tighten their open/4 bet gap require that we introduce a ...

Group 3: Hands that you would not mind getting allin with getting 2-1 against someone capable of 4 betting wide. These hands very well may include stuff like 33 and some suited broadways maybe whatever.

So in general, when dealing with the very difficult 30-35 bb stacks, you really can reraise 33 against some people for f/e only and for others actually because of the possibility that there is some showdown value if you get 4 bet.

Considering ths particular stage of the tournament, I feel that people opening for raises actually do have a pretty wide opening range, and they are usually quite scared of reraises, so I would be inclined to 3 bet more than usual.

I dont like calling with this stack at all unless I have a monster hoping to get a squeeze from behind or a cbet from the opener a huge % of the time, but again I prefer to reraise premiums here as well. I think you overestimate how often you can "stack someone here on a good flop for me"


sheets

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

Sheets and L4TV basically solved this thread.

Gobbo,
You have just as good implied odds as you would if you were in the BB so I think our chip outlay is out of proportion to a reasonable expectation.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

I generally just fold 22-55 when I am out of position and dont have set odds and facing a competant player.

Is this a leak?

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I generally just fold 22-55 when I am out of position and dont have set odds and facing a competant player.

Is this a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, and I actually was soooooo close to open-folding 88 UTG last night at a FT, but couldn't get myself to. (NOTE: I should have)

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

I'm split on this situation because calling/floating costs just as much as 3-betting (which folds a huge part of people's ranges late in tournaments like this) and it is MUCH more difficult to play post flop after flatting. Factor in squeezing, etc etc and I'd rather 3-bet from the button and flat out of the blinds.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

Let's look at this problem mathematically. 33 is 46% against a top 25% hand. If you flat call, you are getting 2-1 pot odds, assuming 1xBB in ante, and you play the hand in position. Sometimes the blinds overcall or reraise/squeeze. This seems like a marginally favorable situation if you are comfortable playing 33 with shallow money.

If you reraise/fold, you risk 7-8xBB to pick up a 5xBB pot. What do you do if you get flat called and miss your set? This approach may not be cEV-.

Once you reraise, it folding to a 4-bet the correct play? You are putting in about 38% of the money to a push. 33 is 38% against a top 8% hand, which would assume villain pushes 1/3 of the time. The fact that the decision is close is an argument for not reraising.

Incidently my calculations show a 3-bet overbet push is maybe very slightly cEV+. You get called about 30% of the time by raiser or the blinds and you are about 33% to win if called. Your expected loss if called is about twice your gain if you steal, so it is a very close big gamble.

I think reraise/fold is popular because it avoids difficult decisions and minimizes the chances of busting out. If you are going to reraise, reraise/call is probably slightly better. The overbet push gets more folds, but with a reraise/call strategy, you get away from the hand when there are 2 allins in front of you or something.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

Great posts by LearnedFromTV and sheets, coming to opposite conclusions.

If you call here, I think you are calling with the primary objective of bluffing your opponent out of the hand later on. There are 3 ways for you to win if you flat: hit a set, win a river showdown UI, or get your opponent to fold a better hand. Hitting a set is happening 12% of the time on the flop, 18% if you get to the river. Winning a river showdown unimproved is happening very rarely -- it would almost have to go c-bet, call; check, check; check, check. Thus, for flatting to be +cEV, you're going to have to turn your hand into a bluff a significant % of the time. IMO you're not deep enough to do that profitably enough. Additionally, since he's opening so wide, the odds of winning a huge hand if you hit a set are low, because he's extremely unlikely to have a hand he'll stack off with.

By 3betting pre, you're basically turning your hand into a bluff, which is only going to be +cEV if Villain is opening wide but calling/shoving narrow, which if he's opening 25% of hands he very well may be. Or as Sheets pointed out if he's calling/shoving very wide, in which case you might want to bet/call, but it's a seriously risky, marginal play. You also have a couple people behind you to worry about.

If you knew the table was breaking on the next hand, I think the max cEV play is to fold pre. If you're looking to slow down Villain, which I think is long-term +$EV, I think 3betting > flatting, because you're going to have to fold a lot of flops if you flat.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

shrug, i usually just fold in these spots. If he is openign 25% of his hands you really dont have implied odds, after u factor in the amount of times the blinds squeeze and u fold, or you call and are an underdog to their range.

And playing postflop with a small pair vs an aggressive player with shallow stacks is hard to play profitably. Position is important, but we are pretty shallow which negates some of our positional advantage. Idk, i think it is best to fold 33 here

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

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shrug, i usually just fold in these spots. If he is openign 25% of his hands you really dont have implied odds, after u factor in the amount of times the blinds squeeze and u fold, or you call and are an underdog to their range.

And playing postflop with a small pair vs an aggressive player with shallow stacks is hard to play profitably. Position is important, but we are pretty shallow which negates some of our positional advantage. Idk, i think it is best to fold 33 here

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hey there, you did a much better job of explaining this than i did. i wish i was better at getting my point across [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

youre reasonably deep in position i see no need to 3 bet here. play poker, flop some sets, float some flops, basically what bakes said.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

I think it depends on how well you play postflop whether flat calling is best. In general, it seems to be the best approach, but 33 is not a great hand to see a flop with. Anything you do is as best slightly cEV+ compared to folding.

My analysis indicates that reraise/calling is slightly cEV+, and reraise/folding is probably atleast not cEV-.

I really don't see anything wrong with a fold if you are not comfortable with reraising or calling.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

I muck out of position usually. Or call but have to check raise alot of dry boards.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

calling in this spot is not a good idea imo, 3-bet/call, 3-bet/fold or push doesnt seem like v good options either so I think its best to just fold it actually even though you are ahead of his range.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling in this spot is not a good idea imo, 3-bet/call, 3-bet/fold or push doesnt seem like v good options either so I think its best to just fold it actually even though you are ahead of his range.

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You are actually slightly behind villain's range if he is raising 25% of his hands.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,410,909,568 games 0.005 secs 682,181,913,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.035% 45.65% 00.39% 1556973048 13224606.00 { 33 }
Hand 1: 53.965% 53.58% 00.39% 1827487308 13224606.00 { 66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }


---

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

In position calling is all right but I still think fold is the better play. To the poster that said theyd rather raise with 9To, I disagree. I'd rather flat call 9T there than 33, it flops better.

Re: thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs
 

Clearly folding is best...I thought the OP was asking about flatting as compared to reraising.

sheets

p.s...gl OP at Niagra