The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

<font color="blue">I believe this is one of the hardest spots to figure out in uNL - mid strength hands from the SB where the flop is threatening. I have some theories about what is the best line and whatnot but I'm posting this more for you guys because I'm interested in what the genral consensus is about this hand.

Villain is standard, 19/16/3 over a good sample, no history this session and he's just a meow chow TAG, but you respect his game. Assume for now that there is no metagame or specific image involved.

Comment on the hand on all streets, and list your plan for the entirety of the hand, detailing what you intend to do if certain cards fall on the turn and river, as well as what you do if your opponent does something you were not anticipating. </font>


Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $50
UTG: $42.95
CO: $119.65
BTN: $59.50
SB: $57.55

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.75</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, CO calls $4.25

Flop: ($12.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero hitches up his pants and...

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

i bet fold around 9. seems like a TAG is much more likely to raise/call a mid-pp then a hand like AJ-AQ, and if we check, he may bluff at it trying to represent the ace, and even if we c/c the flop, he would put us on exactly what we have and 2 barrel at least...

id rather b/f flop, people tend to not bluff 3b pots with an ace on the flop

if he calls, im done with the hand unless i improve

edit: i shouldnt say hes more likely to raise/call with mid pp than AQ since hes probably doing both, but theres more mid pps in his range than Ax hands

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
i bet fold around 9. seems like a TAG is much more likely to raise/call a mid-pp then a hand like AJ-AQ, and if we check, he may bluff at it trying to represent the ace, and even if we c/c the flop, he would put us on exactly what we have and 2 barrel at least...

id rather b/f flop, people tend to not bluff 3b pots with an ace on the flop

if he calls, im done with the hand unless i improve

[/ QUOTE ]

my line exactly

edit: im always leading 3/4ths pot, same as i always do

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

Me too

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

And bets 7$ and gives up to resistance depending on tells and reads.


He seems to have a wide range, tho no history, so it's hard to say, but on the other hand, can you really put him on solely an Ace ?


Anyways, if nothing else shania likes a bet here


Edit: nine is also a fine bet

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

I'd do the same with JJ as I would with TT or AK here and that is bet 9-10$ on the flop. Obv if I am raised I fold JJ. If I am called I check/fold turn.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

What do you think about preflop? And what hands, if any, would you check here?

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

not cbetting here sucks a lot. fire like 7.50 and obv fold to a raise.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about preflop? And what hands, if any, would you check here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think preflop is pretty standard

i dont think im checking any hands im 3betting in this spot...

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

i like a 3bet pf because co, a solid tag, can be raising a huge range, and this hand would be a lot harder to play if we smooth call and the flop comes overcard undercard uncercard rather than if we reraise and get a flop like this. tbh id rather just take it down pf and not even see a flop, i really hate jj

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about preflop? And what hands, if any, would you check here?

[/ QUOTE ]


Balance it the key word


Ask your self first what good hands you would check here ... and how you would play those in a spot like this, then do it with trash once in a rare while too.


This is not trash, but ... ehh .... I had a long argument with the artist formerly know as jonyy about spots like these, where he advocated checking and I said bet.

Oop I like betting, ip ... you can check behing for potcontrol and value extraction, that is my pow.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

quick glance and giving him a range of 55+, AJo+ (since many TAGs call 3bets with PPs liberally), it looks like there are probably are around 40 combos or so that he might continue with Ax, AA, TT and probably 30 or 40 he'll fold. So I guess bet 1/2 pot. should be profitable. but i always check here, so i probably have no idea what i'm doing (i.e., don't listen to me).

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about preflop? And what hands, if any, would you check here?

[/ QUOTE ]


Balance it the key word


Ask your self first what good hands you would check here ... and how you would play those in a spot like this, then do it with trash once in a rare while too.


This is not trash, but ... ehh .... I had a long argument with the artist formerly know as jonyy about spots like these, where he advocated checking and I said bet.

Oop I like betting, ip ... you can check behing for potcontrol and value extraction, that is my pow.

[/ QUOTE ]i so knew u would chime in and respond to this thread

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

Yeah after having the argument with jonyy, we repeated it by pm .... tho if this post wasn't started by Andrew, I most likely wouldn't have read it [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
quick glance and giving him a range of 55+, AJo+ (since many TAGs call 3bets with PPs liberally), it looks like there are probably are around 40 combos or so that he might continue with Ax, AA, TT and probably 30 or 40 he'll fold. So I guess bet 1/2 pot. should be profitable. but i always check here, so i probably have no idea what i'm doing (i.e., don't listen to me).

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if it's 50/50 that he'll fold than a full pot bet should be profitable so it's ok to bet 3/4 of the pot.

But I don't see anything wrong with betting half pot as you suggested. The pot is big because of the pf 3bet so it's unlikely he'll bluff or continue with worse than JJ.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

as for checking the flop, the only thing that speaks for a check is the fact that our opponent is good and he should read us for JJ, QQ, KK. So I can see myself checking AK, TT against him if I thought he might try to bluff me.

To do this with JJ would mean to give him credit to be able to look through our check as it being a tricky move with a monster. I think we are getting too sofisticated here for microlimits though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

so my default line would still be to allways bet the flop.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

My game is TAGgy 23/17 ish and I think preflops not too great.

Yes sometimes we gots to raise (whether we should raise or not I think has more to do with recent table history than much else) but more often than not I flat call and reeval after the flop drops.

Sometimes he's stealing or at least raising the bottom part of his range (the part we are WA of) and a 3bet folds these hands often. He'll call with hands we are slightly ahead of (AK/AQ/etc) which will land us OOP in an inflated pot having to fire blind into the villain and when an overcard to our pair flops we are in downtown RIO and will win a little or lose a stack.

IF the villain who open raised tends to call 3bets and fold to flop aggression I am ore inclined to 3bet pre - my standard play is to call and keep the pot small - I'd guess I 3bet ~30% and call the rest.

Seeing as we did raise and we are here now I think we have to make a bet and rep AK and to do that 1/2 pot is the way forward - fold to further aggro unless we spike the set cos a meowchow TAG villain here is rarely calling/raising our flop bet with a hand that TPGK would beat (and we have less than that)

My line with pairs ike TT/JJ here is to play them pretty much the same way I'd play 22/33

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

Yeah I often flatcall JJ here as well, tho it depends on villian, if he is raising a lot in lp, then I'm just looking to felt JJ.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

I think betting $7 is weak. You are repping AK, and that means you need to bet at $9 or more with this board.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

it is a RR's pot, betting 7$ is treatening villians entire stack!

The only reason for betting 9 is the FD and a need to protect your AK a wee bit.

But it is in no way weak.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

I'm with derosnec and jonyy.

Villain has a pp or a big A, right? I think he bets his A/set almost always if checked to, and rarely bets non-A/set hands.

So I have no problem c/f flop. If villain checks flop behind, I then move into value-mode, which often means chk'ing again on turn, then vb river to get a call from 22+.

If I chk turn, I'll call a lot of bets (which costs the same as a cb, but might come from worse than JJ and gets me to SD).

And I don't care if I am showing weakness anywhere here - villain still needs to grow the balls to bet without the A. TAG villains will be fearing some kind of A slowplay all the way throughout the hand and won't go nuts without one IMO.

I should say that would be my instinct, but would play it differently on occasion.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

So chomp ... would you check AK here too ??

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]


if it's 50/50 that he'll fold than a full pot bet should be profitable so it's ok to bet 3/4 of the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

er no - this is a RERAISED pot. imo betting more than 1/2 pot on any flop with ANY hand in a reraised pot is SPEW.

Look how big the pot will be if he calls a 3/4 pot bet relative to the stacks we are playing with.

What does a 3/4 pot bet accomplish that a half pot bet doesn't? - whether we flop an OP to the board a set or an underpair on an Ace high flop?

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big because of the pf 3bet so it's unlikely he'll bluff or continue with worse than JJ.

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So a 3/4 pot bet if we are planning to bet/fold wastes 1/4 of the pot worth of BB's - SPEW. Worse than that if villain flat calls our flop bet the pot is so big we have a tough decision to make if a brick Turns.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

if im villain and i get checked to, im going to bet a fair % of the time putting you on a JJ-KK hand

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

Yea so am I. Of course recently donks have owned me with a slow played top set when I do this, but hey Im sure it works sometimes. I never really thought about cold calling with JJ pre flop, but Matrix brings up some very interesting points. If villain is going to fold almost the entire part of his range that we want him to play, then why raise? I might try experimenting with this seeing how this works out.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

luckily for all of you, i have no life and have taken detailed notes on all of aba's vids

looking at the notes, revealed these hands he played (similar enough i think; at the very least we get to see what good players do)


BTN opens. Aba 3bets 77 in SB. JTx flop (two hearts). Aba cbets.

CO opens. Aba 3bets JJ OTB. CO checks. Aba cbets ATx flop (two diamonds). Get raised. Aba folds.

BTN opens (multitabler). Aba 3bets K7o in BB. Aba cbets Axx flop.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
it is a RR's pot, betting 7$ is treatening villians entire stack!

The only reason for betting 9 is the FD and a need to protect your AK a wee bit.

But it is in no way weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was villain a $7 bet on this board would make me think my QQ or Ax is good. I would also consider bluff raising. I see AK or AQ for hero unlikely after a $7 bet. It really looks like JJ-KK.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
So chomp ... would you check AK here too ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, yes. For value, control, and to deny villain equity on the flop.

But I underastand the point you are making - that we are telling villain we don't have AK when we check. But this is incorrect IMO. Decent TAG villains will not just assume this, and will often fear a crai/slowplay of some kind when we check.

I also think that any idea that we need to play our weaker hands like our stronger ones is wrong here.

Besides, why do we want to represent AK? To fold out QQ/KK? Good luck doing that with one little cbet.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]

Besides, why do we want to represent AK? To fold out QQ/KK? Good luck doing that with one little cbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No ... it is to make him felt QQ/KK next time around when we actually have AK.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

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Besides, why do we want to represent AK? To fold out QQ/KK? Good luck doing that with one little cbet.

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No ... it is to make him felt QQ/KK next time around when we actually have AK.

[/ QUOTE ]


Gelford, with respect, will this villain remember this hand next time and happily felt his QQ/KK becuase he once saw us cb JJ on an A-hi board? Surely not. Surely not. Or at least, so rarely that it shouldn't effect our effort to maximise EV here and now.

Besides, if we bet and he folds, he doesn't know we didn't have AK, right?

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

I think most uNL villains are thinking about hand values before they are thinking that their stack is in jeopardy when they have $35 behind.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
luckily for all of you, i have no life and have taken detailed notes on all of aba's vids

looking at the notes, revealed these hands he played (similar enough i think; at the very least we get to see what good players do)


BTN opens. Aba 3bets 77 in SB. JTx flop (two hearts). Aba cbets.

CO opens. Aba 3bets JJ OTB. CO checks. Aba cbets ATx flop (two diamonds). Get raised. Aba folds.

BTN opens (multitabler). Aba 3bets K7o in BB. Aba cbets Axx flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Derosnec, I think these are all significantly different to Ama's hand - I'd cb in each of those spots too (like aba lol), but not in Ama's hand.


Edit to say I am wrong here - the second hand is the same as Ama's hand.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

Chomp, the second hand is almost exactly the same as the one listed by op.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it is a RR's pot, betting 7$ is treatening villians entire stack!

The only reason for betting 9 is the FD and a need to protect your AK a wee bit.

But it is in no way weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was villain a $7 bet on this board would make me think my QQ or Ax is good. I would also consider bluff raising. I see AK or AQ for hero unlikely after a $7 bet. It really looks like JJ-KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think wrong.

On this flop I'd bet $7 with JJ $7 with 67cc $7 with AK $7 with AA $7 with 53hh ....

if you call my flop bet and I have strong draw or a made hand that beats one pair I C/Rall-in on any turn I probably C/R you all-in if a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turns up regardless of my hand.

If you raise my flop bet I fold the air hands and you get nothing more from me - and over time all those extra $2 you guys are spewing where you bet $9 and fold to a raise - I keep all them in my bankroll.

The BIGGEST mistakes in poker are the small ones we make over and over and over and over...

Thinking a $7 bet is weak but a $9 bet is strong is looking too much at the dollar amounts being bet and not thinking at all on what will/might happen on later streets.

Hell if we half pot this flop and get called and then half pot the turn and that gets called the pot on the river is &gt;$50 and we'd only have a half pot bet left in our stack

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

Chomp ... I've had this argument before (tho I'm not digging up the jonyy thread)


I do not like getting fancy for the sake of 'value' oop.

EV wise it might not matter a lot whether you do one or the other, you claim to be getting value ... but you're also giving free cards and must expect to call two bets most likely ... sometimes an ace will be there .. sometimes KK ... sometimes AhKh



My main concern is simplicity ... by checking you open up a pandoras box .. but betting 7$ you effectively end the hand (at least til you start noticing that he is a floater), it is pure it is simple and honestly, it is not where you find great EV.


But what it does is making you play wierdly and tricky oop, which in my experience develops and suddenly you find yourself playing many types of hands wierdly etc.

This is a RR's pot, which means cbetting is cheap and quickly can show a profit. Keep it simple .. holla!

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

Not for nothing, when people make weak looking bets into me its usually a scared hand. I have had decent success floating these bets and stealing on the turn.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

Matrix, nice posting in this thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


I'm off to bed, take care all

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not for nothing, when people make weak looking bets into me its usually a scared hand. I have had decent success floating these bets and stealing on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


You have noticed this is a RR's pot, no ?

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

I am not saying 1/2 pot is wrong, because thats usually what I do too. But against a typical uNL player I think a bet like this is usually a scared hand, especially a player who has taggish stats. But I am still learning so this could be way off I guess and I am just running hot.

Re: The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB
 

bet fold the flop. It is hard to get any value so I'd just turn my hand into abluff.