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Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
Everyone knows the auto industry lobbies heavily against emissions standards dot dot dot et cetera...
From a policy perspective, what are some potential productive ways to promote alternative or renewable energy without harming the automobile industry? Subsidizing hybrid research and development? That's all I can think of, cuz I'm a tard. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
As oil and gasoline prices continue to rise, the market will take care of it. No government intervention is needed. Look at the huge success of Hybrid cars (although the government did give $$$ to people who bought them, which was not needed, and the cars actually get similar or worse gas mileage compared to other small cars), or ethanol cars in Brazil.
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
I think from a national defense perspective it'd be smart to have alternative ways to fuel our war machines -- so I wouldn't be opposed to the pentagon researching this. Many of our societies greatest inventions were spurred by the pentagon or NASA.
Give consumers a tax credit if they purchase high fuel-efficiency vehicles. Other than that I'm confident that the free market will come up with solution. The prius, while far from ideal is a step in the right direction and a sign of things to come. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to.
The fact still stands, the % of Americans who possess the mechanical knowledge and time to build their own transportation remains a very small number, so Americans are going to buy cars from someone. Edited to add: The reason the automakers lobby against emission standards is simply because they don't want to retool the factories, however, the time will come when the consumer demand for alternative fuels will outweigh the costs of retooling the factories, and it will be done. No government intervention needed. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
A carbon tax would do some harm to the auto industry, but much less than emissions standards, while achieving a lot more.
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to. [/ QUOTE ] From what I've read, ethanol seems like a scam. We can't seem to make it in such a way as to be energy positive and the amount of land needed to switch from gasoline to ethanol would be incredibly large. Electric cars of some kind seem more like the future than ethanol (w/o gov't intervention distorting the market, obv). I sure wouldn't mind driving something that looks like the Tesla Roadster. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
What if oil prices don't force change soon enough?
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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What if oil prices don't force change soon enough? [/ QUOTE ] They already are. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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[ QUOTE ] I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to. [/ QUOTE ] From what I've read, ethanol seems like a scam. We can't seem to make it in such a way as to be energy positive and the amount of land needed to switch from gasoline to ethanol would be incredibly large. Electric cars of some kind seem more like the future than ethanol (w/o gov't intervention distorting the market, obv). I sure wouldn't mind driving something that looks like the Tesla Roadster. [/ QUOTE ] There has been some pretty serious damage done to the enviroment from electric cars. link Imagine what will happen when these cars outnumber normal combustion engine powered cars and this factories are set up all over America. This is why I think Ethanol will ultimately win out. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
everything should be powered by water. like steam engines
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to. [/ QUOTE ] From what I've read, ethanol seems like a scam. We can't seem to make it in such a way as to be energy positive and the amount of land needed to switch from gasoline to ethanol would be incredibly large. Electric cars of some kind seem more like the future than ethanol (w/o gov't intervention distorting the market, obv). I sure wouldn't mind driving something that looks like the Tesla Roadster. [/ QUOTE ] There has been some pretty serious damage done to the enviroment from electric cars. link Imagine what will happen when these cars outnumber normal combustion engine powered cars and this factories are set up all over America. This is why I think Ethanol will ultimately win out. [/ QUOTE ] You think ethanol will win because the Prius sucks? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] The Prius isn't even an electric car; it's a hybrid. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
Politics posters talking about tech, this should be funny. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to. [/ QUOTE ] From what I've read, ethanol seems like a scam. We can't seem to make it in such a way as to be energy positive and the amount of land needed to switch from gasoline to ethanol would be incredibly large. Electric cars of some kind seem more like the future than ethanol (w/o gov't intervention distorting the market, obv). I sure wouldn't mind driving something that looks like the Tesla Roadster. [/ QUOTE ] There has been some pretty serious damage done to the enviroment from electric cars. link Imagine what will happen when these cars outnumber normal combustion engine powered cars and this factories are set up all over America. This is why I think Ethanol will ultimately win out. [/ QUOTE ] You think ethanol will win because the Prius sucks? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] The Prius isn't even an electric car; it's a hybrid. [/ QUOTE ] Obviously you missed the large portion of that article. The nickel batteries they use in the prius are the same type used in all electric cars. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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The nickel batteries they use in the prius are the same type used in all electric cars. [/ QUOTE ] This isn't quite true. Most of the electric cars you can buy now are powered by lithium ion batteries, which pack more power per kilo and recharge faster. (There is a new type that can be recharged in only 5 minutes.) The problem with Li-ions is that they loose a percentage of their capacity per year, typically about 20%. And they're very expensive, so the cost per mile of driving the car can be huge once replacement battery packs are factored in. For mainstream purposes we need some improvements. There is a more advanced type of NiMH battery, which doesn't suffer from the memory effect of normal NiMH's and so lasts for many more charge cycles. This makes the end-to-end carbon emissions much better and they were used to build the RAV 4 EV. Unfortunately an oil company bought the patents and is refusing to allow anyone to use the technology. There is a new type of battery based on aluminum in development that may knock everything else for six and make electric cars viable, but I wouldn't hold my breath. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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everything should be powered by water. like steam engines [/ QUOTE ] Steam engines are (usually) powered by coal (sometimes wood or oil). The POWER comes from the heat generated by burning something. The steam is just a transport medium for that power. <font color="white"> I figure there's about a 50% chance that I'm being leveled. </font> |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
Actually, if every industry had made as much progress as the car industry we'd be greener already. Not that outside pressure (legal ones amongst others) hasn't helped in this process, but that is besides my point.
It is easy to make them out as the big bad wolf for environmentalists, but believe it or not - one of the major incentives for that is that there is a ton of money around being a major environmentalist organization these days, and the car industry sponsors a lot of environmental research. Accusing these sponsored groups of 'hopeless bias' is a nice cheapshot way of making sure big wallops of cash from other donators fall into your own organization's pocket. I've met leaders of rather small environmental organizations based on voluntary members picking up around 250k US a year. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
You are correct, but as you said yourself....
[ QUOTE ] Politics posters talking about tech, this should be funny. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
I remember reading or hearing somewhere that GE had bought up several different "green" patents that had been held by some oil companies.
Also, it seems that corn is much less efficient than sugar cane for making fuel, but good luck with that. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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Everyone knows the auto industry lobbies heavily against emissions standards dot dot dot et cetera... From a policy perspective, what are some potential productive ways to promote alternative or renewable energy without harming the automobile industry? Subsidizing hybrid research and development? That's all I can think of, cuz I'm a tard. [/ QUOTE ] bio butanol |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
This article was very interesting to me. I wish I was as good at anything as this guy is with vehicles.
It seems that the auto industry has no intentions on being revolutionary. They will only change as much as they have to to stay competitive. Even the market leaders evolve a little at a time. I'm interested in seeing how Tesla motors affects the industry. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
Will we see airplanes driven by more environmental healthy engine's any time soon?
What is the dream regarding alternative fueling? In the best case scenario, what kind of motors do we have in 20-50 years. What kind of performance are we looking at? what kind of special features? |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
Actually U.S. automakers have been lobbying for legislation friendly to flex fuel alternatives where 85% of the fuel used is ethanol. U.S. imposes I believe a $0.54 per gallon excise tax on imported ethanol that is much more effeciently produced than corn based ethanol from the U.S. Eliminate the $0.54 a gallon excise tax and you'd probably see more interest in usage. Many other issues that I don't feel like getting into now regarding ethanol ussage. Probably covered by others and certainly in other threads over the years.
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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Will we see airplanes driven by more environmental healthy engine's any time soon? [/ QUOTE ] Maybe a factor of two decrease in fuel consumption based on the stuff they have on the drawing board. In fact they've just dusted off a bunch of old designs. Most of the tech was already there, it just needed something to make the manufacturers take a risk. No way around needing kerosine however. But there are ways of making synthetic oil from organic substances; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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I think Ethanol could be the future [/ QUOTE ] I get tired of reading this. Ethanol is only viable as a replacement to petroleum if you want to cultivate an area of land the size of Europe for bio fuels. That is just to replace consumption in NA. Also LOL at just assuming the market will just magically provide a technological solution. Mankind still has many problems that if solved would provide $$$$$$$$$ to those providing the solution. According to those making the above assumption, I can expect all of those problems to be solved by the end of next week. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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[ QUOTE ] I think Ethanol could be the future [/ QUOTE ] I get tired of reading this. Ethanol is only viable as a replacement to petroleum if you want to cultivate an area of land the size of Europe for bio fuels. That is just to replace consumption in NA. Also LOL at just assuming the market will just magically provide a technological solution. Mankind still has many problems that if solved would provide $$$$$$$$$ to those providing the solution. According to those making the above assumption, I can expect all of those problems to be solved by the end of next week. [/ QUOTE ] bio butanol |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think Ethanol could be the future [/ QUOTE ] I get tired of reading this. Ethanol is only viable as a replacement to petroleum if you want to cultivate an area of land the size of Europe for bio fuels. That is just to replace consumption in NA. Also LOL at just assuming the market will just magically provide a technological solution. Mankind still has many problems that if solved would provide $$$$$$$$$ to those providing the solution. According to those making the above assumption, I can expect all of those problems to be solved by the end of next week. [/ QUOTE ] bio butanol [/ QUOTE ] That doesn't solve the land problem. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
You just need gasoline to become so expensive that regular joes can't afford to buy trucks.
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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You just need gasoline to become so expensive that regular joes can't afford to buy trucks. [/ QUOTE ] OK, we're there, now what? |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
You need not worry about "harming" the automobile or oil industries. There are over 100 kinds of autos (available throughout the world) that get over 40 MPG on the highway, and only two are available in the U.S., and they are the expensive ones.
The Kia Rio gets 38MPG under perfect conditions and its base price is 10.5K Does that give you an indication of who is running the show? |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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You need not worry about "harming" the automobile or oil industries. There are over 100 kinds of autos (available throughout the world) that get over 40 MPG on the highway, and only two are available in the U.S., and they are the expensive ones. The Kia Rio gets 38MPG under perfect conditions and its base price is 10.5K Does that give you an indication of who is running the show? [/ QUOTE ] why doesn't detroit put out loads of these types of cars then? |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
The diesel engine.
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You need not worry about "harming" the automobile or oil industries. There are over 100 kinds of autos (available throughout the world) that get over 40 MPG on the highway, and only two are available in the U.S., and they are the expensive ones. The Kia Rio gets 38MPG under perfect conditions and its base price is 10.5K Does that give you an indication of who is running the show? [/ QUOTE ] why doesn't detroit put out loads of these types of cars then? [/ QUOTE ] Have you been to detroit lately? It's almost a ghost town. Did you see the documentary on HBO about the electric car they tried to push in L.A.? According to the sales reps they interviewed, they had long waiting lists for the cars. They were, however, using a poor design of battery, and not using the battery invented by ....I forget his name, but bought his company. Later an oil company bought the battery company and the cars were taken back from the customers who were leasing them ( you could only lease them) and crushed, so that any memory of them would be forgotten. Those cars were expensive, however, they were not being mass produced, as GM was testing the waters. In the documentary, they interviewed a guy who had a cute sports car, that he claims runs like a sports car and gets 300 miles to a charge. Why has there been no federal raise in the required MPG on cars in over 25 years? It's like I've been saying for years, just as Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex, I have been advocating that the U.S. is run by the Big Business Machine. Bottom line: There is a lot of oil left. It's there and it has a value and the oil companies are all setup to profit from it. They don't want to retool until they have no other choice. Have you notice how last year, when oil went from $55 a barrel to $65 a barrel, gas prices shot up, but this year, they are pushing $100 a barrel and I still get gas at the price I was paying when it was $65 a barrel. Whazzup with that?.... Because they know a corresponding price increase at the pump will have deflationary effects on the economy, which will have a more negative effect than them making X more dimes per gallon. In addition, with the subprime market and the Bush Deficit screaming : U.S. economy in trouble! They don't want to add fuel to the fire. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You need not worry about "harming" the automobile or oil industries. There are over 100 kinds of autos (available throughout the world) that get over 40 MPG on the highway, and only two are available in the U.S., and they are the expensive ones. The Kia Rio gets 38MPG under perfect conditions and its base price is 10.5K Does that give you an indication of who is running the show? [/ QUOTE ] why doesn't detroit put out loads of these types of cars then? [/ QUOTE ] Have you been to detroit lately? It's almost a ghost town. Did you see the documentary on HBO about the electric car they tried to push in L.A.? According to the sales reps they interviewed, they had long waiting lists for the cars. They were, however, using a poor design of battery, and not using the battery invented by ....I forget his name, but bought his company. Later an oil company bought the battery company and the cars were taken back from the customers who were leasing them ( you could only lease them) and crushed, so that any memory of them would be forgotten. Those cars were expensive, however, they were not being mass produced, as GM was testing the waters. In the documentary, they interviewed a guy who had a cute sports car, that he claims runs like a sports car and gets 300 miles to a charge. Why has there been no federal raise in the required MPG on cars in over 25 years? It's like I've been saying for years, just as Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex, I have been advocating that the U.S. is run by the Big Business Machine. Bottom line: There is a lot of oil left. It's there and it has a value and the oil companies are all setup to profit from it. They don't want to retool until they have no other choice. Have you notice how last year, when oil went from $55 a barrel to $65 a barrel, gas prices shot up, but this year, they are pushing $100 a barrel and I still get gas at the price I was paying when it was $65 a barrel. Whazzup with that?.... Because they know a corresponding price increase at the pump will have deflationary effects on the economy, which will have a more negative effect than them making X more dimes per gallon. In addition, with the subprime market and the Bush Deficit screaming : U.S. economy in trouble! They don't want to add fuel to the fire. [/ QUOTE ] good post, thanks. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You need not worry about "harming" the automobile or oil industries. There are over 100 kinds of autos (available throughout the world) that get over 40 MPG on the highway, and only two are available in the U.S., and they are the expensive ones. The Kia Rio gets 38MPG under perfect conditions and its base price is 10.5K Does that give you an indication of who is running the show? [/ QUOTE ] why doesn't detroit put out loads of these types of cars then? [/ QUOTE ] Have you been to detroit lately? It's almost a ghost town. Did you see the documentary on HBO about the electric car they tried to push in L.A.? According to the sales reps they interviewed, they had long waiting lists for the cars. They were, however, using a poor design of battery, and not using the battery invented by ....I forget his name, but bought his company. Later an oil company bought the battery company and the cars were taken back from the customers who were leasing them ( you could only lease them) and crushed, so that any memory of them would be forgotten. Those cars were expensive, however, they were not being mass produced, as GM was testing the waters. In the documentary, they interviewed a guy who had a cute sports car, that he claims runs like a sports car and gets 300 miles to a charge. Why has there been no federal raise in the required MPG on cars in over 25 years? It's like I've been saying for years, just as Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex, I have been advocating that the U.S. is run by the Big Business Machine. Bottom line: There is a lot of oil left. It's there and it has a value and the oil companies are all setup to profit from it. They don't want to retool until they have no other choice. Have you notice how last year, when oil went from $55 a barrel to $65 a barrel, gas prices shot up, but this year, they are pushing $100 a barrel and I still get gas at the price I was paying when it was $65 a barrel. Whazzup with that?.... Because they know a corresponding price increase at the pump will have deflationary effects on the economy, which will have a more negative effect than them making X more dimes per gallon. In addition, with the subprime market and the Bush Deficit screaming : U.S. economy in trouble! They don't want to add fuel to the fire. [/ QUOTE ] good post, thanks. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah youre right, it couldnt have anything to do with market fundamentals. "Some analysts argue that the underlying fundamentals don’t support such high prices, and say speculative buying is the real reason prices are rising. Tim Evans, an analyst at Citigroup Inc. in New York, noted that despite last week’s decline in domestic inventories, supplies remain high by historic standards. Also, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries is set to boost production by 500,000 barrels a day beginning Nov. 1. “What we’re seeing ... is rising supply and relatively weak demand,” Evans said. He believes oil’s “true value” is closer to $65 a barrel." |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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You just need gasoline to become so expensive that regular joes can't afford to buy trucks. [/ QUOTE ] You know more about economics than 99.9% of people I ever met!!! |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/
A great documentary that was mentioned earlier in this thread. The GM debacle was absolutely insane to watch play out. They took back all of these cars and destroyed them even though people were pleading with them to buy them. Heh, they have an interview with Mel Gibson where he talks about how he was confused as hell about how he could not get purchase one of these cars outright for any price. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You need not worry about "harming" the automobile or oil industries. There are over 100 kinds of autos (available throughout the world) that get over 40 MPG on the highway, and only two are available in the U.S., and they are the expensive ones. The Kia Rio gets 38MPG under perfect conditions and its base price is 10.5K Does that give you an indication of who is running the show? [/ QUOTE ] why doesn't detroit put out loads of these types of cars then? [/ QUOTE ] Have you been to detroit lately? It's almost a ghost town. Did you see the documentary on HBO about the electric car they tried to push in L.A.? According to the sales reps they interviewed, they had long waiting lists for the cars. They were, however, using a poor design of battery, and not using the battery invented by ....I forget his name, but bought his company. Later an oil company bought the battery company and the cars were taken back from the customers who were leasing them ( you could only lease them) and crushed, so that any memory of them would be forgotten. Those cars were expensive, however, they were not being mass produced, as GM was testing the waters. In the documentary, they interviewed a guy who had a cute sports car, that he claims runs like a sports car and gets 300 miles to a charge. Why has there been no federal raise in the required MPG on cars in over 25 years? It's like I've been saying for years, just as Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex, I have been advocating that the U.S. is run by the Big Business Machine. Bottom line: There is a lot of oil left. It's there and it has a value and the oil companies are all setup to profit from it. They don't want to retool until they have no other choice. Have you notice how last year, when oil went from $55 a barrel to $65 a barrel, gas prices shot up, but this year, they are pushing $100 a barrel and I still get gas at the price I was paying when it was $65 a barrel. Whazzup with that?.... Because they know a corresponding price increase at the pump will have deflationary effects on the economy, which will have a more negative effect than them making X more dimes per gallon. In addition, with the subprime market and the Bush Deficit screaming : U.S. economy in trouble! They don't want to add fuel to the fire. [/ QUOTE ] American people own the companies you refer to. You can too, buy their stocks if you think they control the world. If you think the electric car can be produced profitably raise the money from all the Liberal conspiracy kooks and do it yourself. Moveon.org would be a good start, Soros has billions. Why do liberal conspiracy kooks think "The Man" is holding them down? This is a land of enormous capital and opportunity, go do something yourself and don't wait for people you think are crooks to do it for you. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
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http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ A great documentary that was mentioned earlier in this thread. The GM debacle was absolutely insane to watch play out. They took back all of these cars and destroyed them even though people were pleading with them to buy them. Heh, they have an interview with Mel Gibson where he talks about how he was confused as hell about how he could not get purchase one of these cars outright for any price. [/ QUOTE ] mmmmm, because GM would lose a fortune on keeping parts and service available for them, and have their reputation hit hard if they didnt provide that kind of support for cars they sell? Its the free market in action, not another idiotic conspiracy. |
Re: Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ A great documentary that was mentioned earlier in this thread. The GM debacle was absolutely insane to watch play out. They took back all of these cars and destroyed them even though people were pleading with them to buy them. Heh, they have an interview with Mel Gibson where he talks about how he was confused as hell about how he could not get purchase one of these cars outright for any price. [/ QUOTE ] mmmmm, because GM would lose a fortune on keeping parts and service available for them, and have their reputation hit hard if they didnt provide that kind of support for cars they sell? Its the free market in action, not another idiotic conspiracy. [/ QUOTE ] They would not have been hit hard at all. They intentionally sunk the EV1. It's pretty obvious they were not looking to make money on this venture. They had zero foresight when it came to the market for energy efficient cars. They were forced by california legislation to actually produce this car in the first place. They were given a forced leg up in the market. It is quite obvious they wanted nothing to do with it. The free market in action is when GM does poorly in the market because they gave away the green market by killing a car that could have given them a massive jump on the foriegn market. I don't know if you would call it a conspiracy as much as a car company not being interested in making money at all. I like the story my teacher told me in one of my history classes. When the automobile started becoming popular and took over as the main means of travel by the average person there were factories that made rubber buggy whips. Some of the places saw the future and switched over to making rubber tires. Other places kept making buggy whips. They are gone now. GM seems to be content making buggy whips. |
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