TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

I've heard of this WhooooKid character. Lets say his range is 88+,AQ+. What's the best way to play TT?

PokerStars Game #12827871386: Tournament #64644850, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/10/24 - 21:25:34 (ET)
Table '64644850 11' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: mgw21 (5362 in chips)
Seat 2: eBo226 (8885 in chips)
Seat 3: WhooooKidd (4290 in chips)
Seat 4: uclabruinz (4570 in chips)
Seat 5: PearlJammer (8600 in chips)
Seat 6: robert07 (15920 in chips)
Seat 7: pooey (2675 in chips)
Seat 8: leadman67 (6850 in chips)
Seat 9: TheWacoKidd (10818 in chips)
mgw21: posts small blind 100
eBo226: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eBo226 [Th Ts]
WhooooKidd: raises 300 to 500
uclabruinz: folds
PearlJammer: folds
robert07: folds
pooey: folds
leadman67: folds
TheWacoKidd: folds
mgw21: folds
eBo226: ?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

call

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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call

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Agreed, before you do, type in, "According to Baltostar, I'm risking 500, not 300, by making this call", and you'll probably put him on tilt.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

If we're calling for set value, I think it's a -EV play because his stack isn't big enough.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

eBo you aren't calling for set value.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

You're calling to CRAI a sh*tload of flops. The objective behind calling is that it's extremely likely that he isn't raise/folding from that seat this early. Without antes, I'll give Bakes the credit that he isn't bluffing UTG here. You counter that by cutting the hand in half and only letting him see 3 cards.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

Good point, but if we're gonna c/r on raggy flops and hope he will laydown AQ+, then isn't it better to push PF?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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Good point, but if we're gonna c/r on raggy flops and hope he will laydown AQ+, then isn't it better to push PF?

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But you give yourself a shot to win the pot with the worst hand maximizing the pot when you make the move.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

Ebo,
Your 45bbs deep Bakes can raise a lot wider than 88+ AQ UTG here. You call PF because your getting like 3.5:1 so you can call with basically any decent hand and your probably pretty close to ahead of Bakes range.
3betting is really bad because you have a strong hand but are repping a much stronger hand than what you have so bakes will fold most worse hands and call most better hands.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

Well I'm only 21bb deep meself [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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Well I'm only 21bb deep meself [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Oops I still call pf... TT + 3.5:1 etc..

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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Well I'm only 21bb deep meself [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Oops I still call pf... TT + 3.5:1 etc..

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Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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call

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Agreed, before you do, type in, "According to Baltostar, I'm risking 500, not 300, by making this call", and you'll probably put him on tilt.

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Forced bets don't involve a player decision. So here the only useful implied odds given calc is 4290/300 = 14.5:1.

With villain's M and UTG raise I'd figure the implied odds required at about 7.5:1 * 3:2 = 11.25:1

So it's a good call for set value alone.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

don't understand why we wanna call. just shove.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

baltostar, of the times a ten doesnt hit, when are you folding?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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Good point, but if we're gonna c/r on raggy flops and hope he will laydown AQ+, then isn't it better to push PF?

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But you give yourself a shot to win the pot with the worst hand maximizing the pot when you make the move.

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i'm sorry but when will you EVER win this pot with the worst hand?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

i don' tknow numbers but i;'d flat real easy i think both shoving and folding are terrible

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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baltostar, of the times a ten doesnt hit, when are you folding?

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Tough question. I don't really know.

AKQ AKJ KQJ, you're probably behind but have 6 outs. You could semi-bluff I guess, but you can't check b/c it plays into his c-bet and you have no idea where you're at. QJ9 J98 987 you can shove obviously.

If 3 diamonds/clubs, you're probably ahead but you can't check, you have to bet, and if villain calls it's a rerun on the turn. Probably EV- to continue playing.

Other Axx KQx KJx QJx you're kinda dust.

The rest of the flops I think you're ok to get it allin, even AAx KKx QQx JJx

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

you definately dont have 6 outs if you shove w/ a gutshot to broadway and get called

also i think our range is very narrow once we flat bakes which could make this hand even harder to play when compounded with our position. if this is the 100r you have to play it, but in a 100fo is folding and waiting for a better spot totally unreasonable?

also, baltostar, the minus sign goes in front of EV

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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If we're calling for set value, I think it's a -EV play because his stack isn't big enough.

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lol?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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you definately dont have 6 outs if you shove w/ a gutshot to broadway and get called

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Ok, if he already has broadway you have 3 outs to chop, so that counts as 1.5. If he has a broadway draw to a T you have 3. Same broadway draw as you is unlikely but you chop, so 4 counts as 2. If he has a set you only have 4 good maybe 2/3 of the time = 2.5. If he has 2P you have 6 good maybe 2/3 of the time = 4. If he has PP of the card you need you have 4. If he has top pair, you have maybe 5.5 Put it all in the blender, I don't know, maybe 3.5 outs on avg ? I guess you probably shouldn't shove AKQ AKJ KQJ

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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you definately dont have 6 outs if you shove w/ a gutshot to broadway and get called

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Ok, if he already has broadway you have 3 outs to chop, so that counts as 1.5. If he has a broadway draw to a T you have 3. Same broadway draw as you is unlikely but you chop, so 4 counts as 2. If he has a set you only have 4 good maybe 2/3 of the time = 2.5. If he has 2P you have 6 good maybe 2/3 of the time = 4. If he has PP of the card you need you have 4. If he has top pair, you have maybe 5.5 Put it all in the blender, I don't know, maybe 3.5 outs on avg ? I guess you probably shouldn't shove 3.5x the pot vs. utg raiser on AKQ AKJ KQJ

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o rly?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

Shove. Basically a coin toss vs. the hands he raise calls with. Slight chance he raise folds.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

708,893,856 games 0.005 secs 141,778,771,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.495% 51.60% 00.90% 365768136 6366534.00 { 88+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 47.505% 46.61% 00.90% 330392652 6366534.00 { TT }


---

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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you definately dont have 6 outs if you shove w/ a gutshot to broadway and get called

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Ok, if he already has broadway you have 3 outs to chop, so that counts as 1.5. If he has a broadway draw to a T you have 3. Same broadway draw as you is unlikely but you chop, so 4 counts as 2. If he has a set you only have 4 good maybe 2/3 of the time = 2.5. If he has 2P you have 6 good maybe 2/3 of the time = 4. If he has PP of the card you need you have 4. If he has top pair, you have maybe 5.5 Put it all in the blender, I don't know, maybe 3.5 outs on avg ? I guess you probably shouldn't shove 3.5x the pot vs. utg raiser on AKQ AKJ KQJ

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o rly?

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If I was villain here's what I'd raise UTG with M=15 : any pair, AJ+, A8s+, KQ, KJs, KTs, T9s+. I'm calling the AKQ AKJ AQJ KQJ boards with AA KK QQ JJ TT AJ+, ATs, KQ, KJs, KTs, QJs, JTs.

Let's assume villain doesn't have a T.

XX hands have 6 combos, XY have 8, XYs have 4. Villain calling frequency would be = (4*6 + 4*8 + 5*4)/(13*6 + 4*8 + 8*4) = (76/142) = 53%

If called, hero loses (1 - 3.5/45) = 92% of the time.

Expected payoff for hero = (47% * 4390) + (53% * ( 7% * 4390 - 92% * 4190)) = 2063 + 163 - 2043 = 200

This is pretty close and we have to tweak down for chance villain has a T, so it looks like a total coin flip (based on my raising range).

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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If I was villain here's what I'd raise UTG with M=15 : any pair, AJ+, A8s+, KQ, KJs, KTs, T9s+. I'm calling the AKQ AKJ AQJ KQJ boards with AA KK QQ JJ TT AJ+, ATs, KQ, KJs, KTs, QJs, JTs.


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Some guys in the beginners forum were discussing some super advanced concepts the other day. I don't think any of the "standard" players here will have heard of it. One of them was called "position". You should go check it out.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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If I was villain here's what I'd raise UTG with M=15 : any pair, AJ+, A8s+, KQ, KJs, KTs, T9s+. I'm calling the AKQ AKJ AQJ KQJ boards with AA KK QQ JJ TT AJ+, ATs, KQ, KJs, KTs, QJs, JTs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Some guys in the beginners forum were discussing some super advanced concepts the other day. I don't think any of the "standard" players here will have heard of it. One of them was called "position". You should go check it out.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're saying. You think my raising range for villain is too wide because I'll likely be playing the hand OOP ? What's your M=14 UTG raising range ?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

I would just call here, we are too deep to be shoving this this or RR to fold to a shove.

Call here and look to CR low flops

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

A couple points:

1. We are not too deep to be shoving. Effective stacks are 21 BBs.

2. Agree that folding is out of the question.

3. Agree with apestyles that shoving is probably slightly +cEV.

But, that still leaves the question whether calling is more +EV. Just because one option is good doesn't mean others aren't better. I don't know the answer, by the way, but Bakes is good and has position and has a real hand, so I can't imagine playing OOP with TT is very good here.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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Effective stacks are 21 BBs...Bakes is good and has position and has a real hand

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the thing about this is that we're not really debating "playing OOP" so much as we are debating "shove vs. call, check/fold bad flops, check/shove good ones" (I assume nobody wants to check/call non-set flops here as that'd be kinda crazy for like 1/3 of our stack.) Seen in that light, I think check/shoving is a clear favorite since JJ+ isn't ever folding anyway but 88 doesn't get away on 742 boards.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

You're nitpicking. Friggin' lawyer.

EDIT: BTW, before you nitpick again, I know you're not nitpicking. The distinction you make is important. Position is almost irrelevant because our action is pretty much predistined by whatever the flop is. I guess the only relevance with position is that Bakes is also thinking about ranges and flop texture.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

I think the the few times that we get value vs. lower pairs on < T high flops do not make up for the times that we fold the best hand on unfavorable flops and/or make overcards fold on those flops. I also am playing alot of tables and prefer to make my life less complicated. Shooooooooove, and I really don't think there is much debate - he has 21 BBs wtf?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

But check out what happens if we tighten up the pre-flop shove calling range :

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 44.866% 43.76% 01.11% 39708900 1007822.00 { TcTd }
Hand 1: 55.134% 54.02% 01.11% 49027568 1007822.00 { 88+, AKs, AKo }

Hand 0: 40.173% 38.95% 01.22% 31348050 982766.00 { TcTd }
Hand 1: 59.827% 58.61% 01.22% 47164706 982766.00 { 99+, AKs, AKo }

Hand 0: 34.052% 32.69% 01.36% 22949166 956996.00 { TcTd }
Hand 1: 65.948% 64.58% 01.36% 45341306 956996.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }

Hand 0: 33.654% 33.45% 00.20% 22911950 138060.00 { TcTd }
Hand 1: 66.346% 66.14% 00.20% 45304090 138060.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


Unless you think villain thinks you have a wide shoving range I think calling is better than shoving (that is, assuming you're not 12-tabling; I can only 4-table).

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

holy [censored], we have less equity if his range is tighter?!?!?!

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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holy [censored], we have less equity if his range is tighter?!?!?!

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The rate at which shove cEV falls as we incrementally tighten villain's calling range is kinda relevant to comparing two options to maximize cEV, wouldn't you agree ?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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holy [censored], we have less equity if his range is tighter?!?!?!

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The rate at which shove cEV falls as we incrementally tighten villain's calling range is kinda relevant to comparing two options to maximize cEV, wouldn't you agree ?

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It is irrelevant. He is not raise folding 88 and he is not open mucking 88. If you think otherwise you are saying bakes sucks at poker.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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It is irrelevant. He is not raise folding 88

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he might raise/fold 88, no?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

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It is irrelevant. He is not raise folding 88

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he might raise/fold 88, no?

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Yeah, wouldn't calling a shove from the BB with 88 here be seriously -cEV unless you put the BB on some unrealistic superwide range shoving vs. an UTG raiser?

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

Baltostar- you are ignoring the % of the time Bakes folds if we shove.

Others- I shoved. He had KK. I won hand. I won tournament. Case closed.

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

BB's shoving range would have to be way wide to make UTG 88 a +cEV call :

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 52.061% 51.43% 00.63% 120656958 1470325.00 { 8c8d }
Hand 1: 47.939% 47.31% 00.63% 110988040 1470325.00 { 22+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }

Hand 0: 51.485% 50.73% 00.76% 91202640 1362465.00 { 8c8d }
Hand 1: 48.515% 47.76% 00.76% 85864350 1362465.00 { 22+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Hand 0: 49.222% 48.58% 00.64% 103989042 1364371.00 { 8c8d }
Hand 1: 50.778% 50.14% 00.64% 107320216 1364371.00 { 44+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }

Hand 0: 35.849% 34.95% 00.90% 41295900 1059450.00 { 8c8d }
Hand 1: 64.151% 63.25% 00.90% 74734176 1059450.00 { 88+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Re: TT vs. WhoooooohKid
 

I'm 75% sure Bakes open folds 88 UTG in this situation, and I thought I had very little, if any, fold equity.