i made a move good play?
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 (t76952)
MP2 (t34113)
MP3 (t59036)
CO (t23655)
Button (t31880)
Hero (t46210)
BB (t64243)
UTG (t48363)
UTG+1 (t6822)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t1600, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t1600, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t9500</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>,

Re: i made a move good play?
 

Don't see why not. Only way this is a bad move is if the limpers have shown they are not capable of limp/fold,but always do the limp/call.

I'm going to assume that you had a read tho,so I think this looks just fine.

Of course when I do this,MP calls,and I'm totally lost on what to do on the flop bc of stacksizes.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

If you got BB, and both limpers to muck...yes, good move.

Otherwise, this is kinda read-dependent on what UTG might be limping with.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

Pretty read dependent here..if you have prior hands played that lead you to believe the limpers won't call then it's fine..don't get yourself into a situation where you hit a Q on the flop and get attached to hand that is second best.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

Personally, I hate this play either way, read dependent or not. You have ~30BB, why do you 'need' to make a move here? Sure, you're not top 10 stack, but I don't think you have cause to concern that you're going to fold/muck out here. I think there's definitely better spots to try and make a move, even if the UTG has 23.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

Fold PF. You will have a much better spot before your M becomes a problem.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

i dont think stacks are very good for this play. you're too deep and will be oop.

i'd complete preflop

Re: i made a move good play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I hate this play either way, read dependent or not. You have ~30BB, why do you 'need' to make a move here? Sure, you're not top 10 stack, but I don't think you have cause to concern that you're going to fold/muck out here. I think there's definitely better spots to try and make a move, even if the UTG has 23.

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Hmmm,unless you are down to nothing,or you have AA,you don't "need" to make a move.However,to accumulate chips you have to take the occasional risk,I'd actually say that this isn't that big of a risk.

Usually when people limp they have weakish hands,so why not try to steal?

You also say wait for a better spot. First of all,you never know if or when a better spot will come along,but let's disregard that for now.

I assume that you are against this bc of the weak hand Ham is doing it with. What is your range then for raising in this situation?

I mentioned accumulating chips. Unfortunately good cards aren't always forthcoming,so you have to work with what you've got. If you fold here,then hang around for a couple of orbits,you won't have enough chips left to make a move,to try to make something happen. Any raise will commit you to the pot,ie you need a good hand. Unfortunately,the good hand isn't coming.

With the stack here,OP can(and will I'm sure) fold if he is rr and still have plenty left. The key here is the stacksize,and I guess that's where we look at things differently. You believe that he should wait for a better hand,I believe that he should take opportunities like this to increase his stack and put himself in a situation where he's got enough chips to be able to win the tourney.

The more I look at it,the more I think this is a good move.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I hate this play either way, read dependent or not. You have ~30BB, why do you 'need' to make a move here? Sure, you're not top 10 stack, but I don't think you have cause to concern that you're going to fold/muck out here. I think there's definitely better spots to try and make a move, even if the UTG has 23.

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Hmmm,unless you are down to nothing,or you have AA,you don't "need" to make a move.However,to accumulate chips you have to take the occasional risk,I'd actually say that this isn't that big of a risk.

Usually when people limp they have weakish hands,so why not try to steal?

You also say wait for a better spot. First of all,you never know if or when a better spot will come along,but let's disregard that for now.

I assume that you are against this bc of the weak hand Ham is doing it with. What is your range then for raising in this situation?

I mentioned accumulating chips. Unfortunately good cards aren't always forthcoming,so you have to work with what you've got. If you fold here,then hang around for a couple of orbits,you won't have enough chips left to make a move,to try to make something happen. Any raise will commit you to the pot,ie you need a good hand. Unfortunately,the good hand isn't coming.

With the stack here,OP can(and will I'm sure) fold if he is rr and still have plenty left. The key here is the stacksize,and I guess that's where we look at things differently. You believe that he should wait for a better hand,I believe that he should take opportunities like this to increase his stack and put himself in a situation where he's got enough chips to be able to win the tourney.

The more I look at it,the more I think this is a good move.

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I would say it's much less EV than when we have a read that villains will limp fold. UTG limp scares me, why press it? complete, hit 2 pair / flush or go away... looks like you're trying to find spots for plays, not the other way around. We don't have the stack to be raising with the plan of folding to a shove.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

it's all reads for this type of move obviously...

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Fold PF. You will have a much better spot before your M becomes a problem.

[/ QUOTE ] this is hilarious.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

Understandable kenny, but you contradicted yourself. You said that he can hang around a few more orbits and try to wait for a good hand, 'but that isnt coming' or something like that. If he is able to fold to a reraise/shove, how will he possibly have enough chips now that he's lost 1/4th of his stack? I think a complete is a much better play if you choose to play this. Any king or ace has you preflop and most likely with then have you postflop unless you hit/draw to a flush or hit a queen. Just such a dangerous hand to play OOP unless you hit hard.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Understandable kenny, but you contradicted yourself. You said that he can hang around a few more orbits and try to wait for a good hand, 'but that isnt coming' or something like that. If he is able to fold to a reraise/shove, how will he possibly have enough chips now that he's lost 1/4th of his stack? I think a complete is a much better play if you choose to play this. Any king or ace has you preflop and most likely with then have you postflop unless you hit/draw to a flush or hit a queen. Just such a dangerous hand to play OOP unless you hit hard.

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He's not raising based on the strength of his hand.

UTG can be limping 22-77, 9Ts, JQs, etc and if MP2 held anything capable of calling hero's extremely-strong-looking raise he'd be raising himself to isolate UTG.

The idea is that it looks so strong it's going to be taken down PF, and if called hero still gets to see the flop.

Also nobody's restealing at this point except possibly BB.

This is referred to as "punishing limpers", "playing poker", "making a move"...

In addition, OP can give up on the flop and be in much the same position as he is now. OP can afford to make moves at this point (and absolutely should be).

Re: i made a move good play?
 

I like it to a point....the biggest problem is that in real life good poker you are forcing the MP2 to reraise or fold...some really bad players will actually call here and that is the worst possible outcome...UTG is obviously irrelevant...what is our plan for the flop if MP2 flats?

Re: i made a move good play?
 

i was an above avg stack at this point itm. i just think occasionally you have to beat people without cards to win. the cards break even in long run so i saw this as a rare "steal spot". unfortunately both guys called the flop came 77q. i shoved i got called by mp guy who showed the all powefull q10off. oh well. oh yeah then he called my all in 3 hands later (6bb) w kjo and sent me packing. my nuts hurt.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

Read dependant but I like it. I like it more if you had the puck. I like it even more if your stack was double it's size. Punish the limpers.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i was an above avg stack at this point itm. i just think occasionally you have to beat people without cards to win. the cards break even in long run so i saw this as a rare "steal spot". unfortunately both guys called the flop came 77q. i shoved i got called by mp guy who showed the all powefull q10off. oh well. oh yeah then he called my all in 3 hands later (6bb) w kjo and sent me packing. my nuts hurt.

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Yea,not surprised mp called actually,thats why I eluded to it in my first post.Another poster,ssnyc I think mentioned it as well,obv this is not a calling spot,its fold or push,but bad players do stupid stuff......oh,I'm not surprised he called bc since you posted this,that's what I figured happened,but ya,so bad....

I still stand by my original thought,I think the move is good,and there's no contradiction either. I mean,if you get repopped,fold and then are lowstacked and no good hands coming...ok,you lose but at least you tried to make something happen.That was kinda the point of my post anyway.

QT huh? How sad is it that I'm not even surprised villain played that way....

Re: i made a move good play?
 

you need a really solid read here to make this move. your key question is whether your opponents are "good enough" to fold here with weak holdings but bad enough to not see what you are doing.

while i typically detest the nits here who are scared to make a move with more than 10 BBs, I think they are probably right here in that you can wait for a better spot. These players are so bad that making moves like this just spews chips. Moves like this are best when you are at tight tables with decent/so-so players. Not bozos like these guys

Re: i made a move good play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you need a really solid read here to make this move. your key question is whether your opponents are "good enough" to fold here with weak holdings but bad enough to not see what you are doing.

while i typically detest the nits here who are scared to make a move with more than 10 BBs, I think they are probably right here in that you can wait for a better spot. These players are so bad that making moves like this just spews chips. Moves like this are best when you are at tight tables with decent/so-so players. Not bozos like these guys

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thank you i think you gave the best analysis. i rarely if ever make these moves in these donkaments thats why i posted it to see if anyone out there DOES make this play and what results do they get.

Re: i made a move good play?
 

make it a solid 10k. they'll fold to a 5 figure bet, but might be inclined to call 9600.

good move as long as you know UTG isnt being an ass with aces. sometimes i even shove here, though i prefer to be in the BB with this kind of deal.