Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

I originally posted this in BBV but thought I'd throw it in here to see if others have experienced this sort of thing and the impact it had on their games afterwards.

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I hosted a home poker tourney last Friday night. There were 18 players buying in for $25 each (I know we're ballas!) for a total of $450. The players were mostly "league" members. We formed a low-key league around 6 months ago as a way to get in some poker once or twice a month. Top 4 were to be paid. When it gets down to the top 4, the league manager goes over to his league folder to get the cash for the money presentation. It's at this point that he discovered it was missing. A side game had broken out and allegedly some of these players needed to make change and went into the folder to do that. My neighbor a reputable guy was the last to see it about 30-45 minutes before it was discovered missing. We turn my basement upside down and can't find it any where. It's at this point the amateur detectives begin throwing out theories. Here's what we came up with.

1- A friend of one of my friend's sisters has been playing with us for over a year. What I'm about to say next is major stereo typing but..... she's younger (25ish) and is probably the only one that $450 would make a difference to. She has a diamond nose chip and a bunch of ink. She's also hot but that's irrelevant. Sorry no pics! She has allegedly a shady past. Kelly was seen hovering near where the folder was placed. She also left about 10 minutes before the money was first discovered missing. The rest of the crew including myself are in our early 40s with above average paying jobs so the money isn't overly important to us. With the exception of....

2- My friend Dave who I've began to hang out with about a year ago. He has 2 kids that play with my kids (ages 8-10) and he's not much of a poker player. He made a big stink about needing to play really low stakes. He is also about to lose his job and his future is up in the air as he hasn't locked down another job yet. He also seemed to be the most vocal about blaming Kelly (#1 above). This may be a case of he who smelt it, dealt it. He who supplied it, denied it, etc. etc.

#3) Accidentally thrown out. Unlikely as one of my neighbors was one of the last to see the money as he made change from the cash during the side game about 30-45 minutes before we discovered it missing.

#4) The field. The final 4-5 from the main game have iron clad alibis (includes myself as I finished 4th - and as it turns out I'm glad I didn't go further!). There was only one other guy I didn't know and he seemed to be in the same demographic as the rest of us (has enough $$$ to not need to worry about vicking $450). My reputable neighbor who was the last to see the money, was seen making a clear announcement when he went into the folder to get change. “I’m taking out a ten, a five and 5 ones. I’m putting a twenty back in the folder. I’m putting the folder back.”

#5) Some kids including my own were down in the basement. This isn't very plausable since the oldest, my son is only 11 and knows better. Dave (#2) above made mention of the fact that there were kids in the vicinity. The next morning I half kiddingly mention the missing money to my son. Using my adept poker skills to see into his soul, I conclude rather quickly he had nothing to do with it. Now if I see $450 worth of candy bar wrappers in the den.................

So it was a major bummer and thankfully the winner was very good natured about being ripped out of ~ $200. It has thrown a shadow of doubt over the league and we now feel compelled to take safeguards in protecting the cash which is unfortunate. So to recap:

Brag: I finished ITM at a home tourney
Beat: No money presentation
Variance: Main suspect is hot

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

Next time have one person handle the tournament money, period. One person handle the cash game money, period.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

Next time have one person handle the tournament money, period. One person handle the cash game money, period.
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Yep, will definitely have to do something different going forward. Up until this point, it never crossed anyones mind that something like this could happen. Bummer that we have to worry about stuff like this but such is life.......

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

With 18 people playing in the tourney and several others, including kids, in the room throughout the evening, I'm not really surprised the money went missing. Even for those who don't really "need" it, $450 can seem very tempting.

While I would suggest that prime suspect is probably the most likely (not because of the studs or ink, but because she had just left), it's going to be pretty much impossible to prove.

My suggestions would be two-fold.
1. Ban the hot girl from the game. Yes, this will suck because she's hot, but then again, she's probably distracting you from playing your best poker anyway.
2. Have someone that everyone trusts hold the money. This is not that big of a deal, as it'll just be in someone's pocket instead of sitting in a folder somewhere.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

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1. Ban the hot girl from the game. Yes, this will suck

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Disagree strongly, without more proof. The host probably should pony up, unless everyone lets him off the hook.

KITN for several people

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

Disagree that the host should pony up (not just because I was the host). I had an iron clad alibi as I was playing during the interval of time between when the last person saw the money (reputable neighbor) and when it first discovered missing. If anything, and I would never even suggest this, the league manager who collected the money, set it aside in his league manager folder might feel obligated to pony up. Not one of the top 4 finishers (including myself) made any kind of stink about not getting paid.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Disagree that the host should pony up (not just because I was the host). I had an iron clad alibi as I was playing during the interval of time between when the last person saw the money (reputable neighbor) and when it first discovered missing. If anything, and I would never even suggest this, the league manager who collected the money, set it aside in his league manager folder might feel obligated to pony up. Not one of the top 4 finishers (including myself) made any kind of stink about not getting paid.

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Agree about the host not being on the hook since he wasn't acting as the bank.

Lesson learned: somebody has to be the money man, and, unless you have a lock box, the money stays in his pocket. Money man takes a hit if money goes missing.

Quite frankly, even in a friendly, low stakes game, I'm surprised you were this lax about the money, particularly with 18 plus people milling around.



--Zetack

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Disagree that the host should pony up (not just because I was the host).

If anything, and I would never even suggest this, the league manager who collected the money, set it aside in his league manager folder might feel obligated to pony up. Not one of the top 4 finishers (including myself) made any kind of stink about not getting paid.

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Then you cut him a nice break. You still share minor responsibility as the host, if for nothing else than making sure the tourney host (league mgr) had proper safety procedures in place.

"Never suggest this" ?? Why the hell not?

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

we usually put the money in an empty card box and keep it on the table at all times. i usually host and just designate someone as the card box keeper and the box just sits next to them. if anyone needs change they tell the box keeper and he gets it out. also since the box is on the table its always in plain view.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

I agree with yeota. We keep ours in one of the card boxes that we break open for the nights game. As one of the hosts of our game, and since my roomate is generally piss drunk by the end of the night, I designate myself as banker. All money and chips must pass through me. I would never put the cash in my pocket, however, as it just seems more transparent to keep it in everyone's sight.

It can be a bit of a pain in the ass (especially when someone wants to cash out or chip up while you're in a hand) but everyone is happy at the end of the night when the chips match the bank and the bank is all there.

Chalk it up to a lesson learned for everyone.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would never put the cash in my pocket, however, as it just seems more transparent to keep it in everyone's sight.

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Yeah, and it's in everyone's sight. What happens when you go to the restroom or out for a smoke? Do you take it with you? Will you cover any differences if it's off? What's wrong with keeping it your pocket? That narrows down any sort of problem to only one person. SOMEBODY needs to be responsible for the money from start to finish.

Only one person handles the money! When you're a small group that barely has enough for one table, sure, keep it on the mantle or wherever. But as soon as you start bringing in people who come and go throughout the night, ONE PERSON HANDLES THE MONEY. And that person HOLDS ONTO IT.

It's really really easy. Most people use $20s, so put those on the bottom. On top of the $20s, put the $100s, and then everything else. Order, bottom to top, is $20, $100, $50, $10, $5, $1 (hopefully no singles as they add too much bulk; I keep a roll of dollar coins around for change). Then fold it over so that the big circled sans-serif 20 is facing out. Put it in your back pocket. For me, this is easier to access and handles more quickly than a bunch of money piled up somewhere. People can wait until I'm out of a hand to cash out or rebuy, it's not a big deal. That way I know it's safe and I know that any error is my own fault. Since doing it this way, I've had no problems.

Oh, and it goes without saying that absolutely nobody but me touches the chips in the bank. I keep them in a place that has some physical and psychological barriers to everybody else.

So, yeah, sucks you have this problem, but an ounce of prevention...

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

pfapfap-

We have a group of about ten to twelve regulars that have been playing for a couple of years now. There's always at least five folks at the table to keep an eye on one another, and they all know that nobody gets chips or puts money in the box without me being there. So, for me, it's fine if it stays on the table. We play at fairly low stakes, but can end up with around $600 or so in the box at any given time. The worst thing we ever had happen was the box was short at the end of the night. It was after that night that I became banker.

We don't invite any new people to the group that someone doesn't know really well, and obviously don't have a big enough bank to have to worry about folks colluding and stealing the box in groups.

The 10/20 game I go to is much different. People get patted down, there are security cameras at all entrances and the money goes in a lockbox. At that game, I'd agree that the money needs to be in a central location, but it'd bother me if that was all in one guys pocket. I'd rather have it to the point where I didn't have to accuse anyone of anything when it comes time to cash out.

I think it mostly depends on the stakes. The OP's group, as he stated, doesn't play large enough stakes that there would be a temptation for a group to work together to steal the cash. If enough dependable eyes are on the box, and only one person is allowed in it, then it should be fine to keep it out in the open.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

[ QUOTE ]
At that game, I'd agree that the money needs to be in a central location, but it'd bother me if that was all in one guys pocket. I'd rather have it to the point where I didn't have to accuse anyone of anything when it comes time to cash out.


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I don't care WHERE the money goes, as long as the banker knows that he/she is responsible for cashouts and shortages.

As you noted, games are different... but the more you make things standard practice across ALL types of groups, the more likely they are to spread and cut off some of this nonsense (hopefully)

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

I think we're all agreeing with each other here. The only thing I was trying to point out is that my home game is with a group of folks I competely trust, as it's been mostly the same group of folks for two years. This sounds similar to the group OP has. However, even with the high level of trust we have, there is still a centralized bank and only one banker. That should be standard.

My suggestion for OP, drop the chick you don't trust and don't invite the guy who's mortgage is on the line. If you're just looking to have fun, people who may have reasons to not be on the up-and-up are not the type of folks you want at that game. Save the stress for someone else's game.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

1 Have one person hold the money, in their pockect.

2 league was never setup right where it allowed everyone access to the money.


3 In your time searching for the money, did everyone agree to empty theri pockects and wallets

4 Can't point the finger after the fact with proof, live and learn

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

It was colonel Mustard in the dining room with the candle stick. Money is gone and you have learned that even friends will steal from you.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

I suggest you ask your friend Dave, in private and politely, if he took the money. If he is really a friend, he won't take offense. If he gets angry, indignant, holds a grudge, etc., he probably did it and in this case hopefully the friendship will break up over it.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

I play in one game where the money is just put on a shelf with the chips. Everyone there knows each other very well, and nobody would dare mess with it. But everyone is also very drunk and many people sometimes touch the till and make change and whatever else, so it's short sometimes. I doubt deliberately, but that's the way it can go.

In my game, though, I keep the cash. Not so much as a protection against theft, but as a protection against exactly this sort of situation. I don't like having to distrust an entire group of people. None of us are perfect, so why have the temptation out there for someone who may be a little weak that day? And if I go somewhere else, I don't care if the money goes in someone's pocket or a pneumatic tube, as long as I have the guarantee I can exchange my chips later.

If something like this happened in my game, it would completely destroy the mood for a very long time, perhaps rendering the game unsalvageable. That's a risk I don't want to take.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

Cheap lockable cash box with the ability to make change (cash enough for the limit be it cash OR tourney). You keep the key, you make all the change - period.

Keep the cash box under your chair at all times.

Balance it at the end of the night (keep list of the # of bills etc). I have never had a shortage and never an issue doing it this way.

ADDED:

Oh, and as it was noted above: "Oh, and it goes without saying that absolutely nobody but me touches the chips in the bank. I keep them in a place that has some physical and psychological barriers to everybody else."

Basically, all money and chips go through me...no if, ands, or buts and no matter what friend offers to help.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

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Now if I see $450 worth of candy bar wrappers in the den.................


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That would almost be worth it.


Have you asked your league about what changes they would like to implement to prevent this? Presenting them with some ideas from the 2+2 crowd is fine, but getting consensus from the actual players is probably the best idea.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

When I run a tourny or cashgame I always keep the moneys in my pocket.
If something is missing I pay it from my own pocket.

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

[ QUOTE ]
pfapfap-

We have a group of about ten to twelve regulars that have been playing for a couple of years now. There's always at least five folks at the table to keep an eye on one another, and they all know that nobody gets chips or puts money in the box without me being there. So, for me, it's fine if it stays on the table. We play at fairly low stakes, but can end up with around $600 or so in the box at any given time. The worst thing we ever had happen was the box was short at the end of the night. It was after that night that I became banker.



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Despite my suggestion, I'm not a fanatic about the money in the pocket, as long as the money is in a place where the Bank feels secure that there is not going to be any tampering.

having the box on the table to me feels a little insecure, particularly with a 12 man player pool. What happens during the unforseen circumstance - i.e. somebody chokes on a piece of whatever, basically passes out and the game stops while things get settled down, or something truly spectacular happens in the game on TV in the background and everybody stands or goes ove to watch, or heck, you all just take a break when the pizza gets there... and then, unexpectedly, unwatched, there is the box of cash sitting on the table...

As long as you're comfortable, and it is clear that you've thought about it, fine. But the bank still takes the hit if it comes up short. It's your risk, so its your call. If I'm just big on erring on the side of keeping temptation out of everybody's way, that's my own hang-up.

--Zetack

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

I have hosted/ran many tourneys and have come up short at payout time, either due to non-collection or bad change making. I covered the difference, since it was my responsibility. At least that's how I perceived it. If that's not the case, I want my money back!

Re: Home tourney - Cash stolen
 

put the money in your pocket and pay back what you lose