2/5 PLO8 Live
 

I was playing in a live 2/5 PLO8 game with about 900 in my stack, CO covers and Button has about 300. CO is a very good TAG who consistently beats the game. Button is a loose player, he will call many small bets chasing but he isn't the type of player who will call all-in just on a low draw or OESD. So, he is bad but not completely clueless.

There is a $15 raise from CO, I call from the CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Button calls and the blinds fold.

Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (Pot=$52)

CO fires out $30. Of course I am at least calling. Should I raise here to try to take it down or do I just call? I am pretty sure that CO also has the A2, although I am of course not 100% certain. I also have to worry about the button behind me. What is my play?

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

If you think the guy behind you has A2, he's not folding here. Bang the hand and 3/4 him. Also, get rid of the other guy (or make him pay). He could also have A2 or a spade draw. Or maybe he's got A3 and is stupid. Unlikely he has 7-8. Maybe he has 3-7, but if you need to rule out every possible hand before banging this one, then you'll never win.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

How is there a raise from CO and you call from CO. Where are you in this hand and who is raising?
Do you know how the good players view you? I mean I think this is key. He made a .5psb so this could be a A2 bet or something like that. They only have $300 at the beginning of the hand.
So we have $300 - 45 = $265 left for CO and $265 left for btn if he calls.
If you call and btn folds there is $110 in the pot. If btn calls there is $140 in the pot. Other than a spade, there is no real turn card that would scare you (assuming the btn calls behind).
Either way, you can bet out on the turn and get it all in easily by the river. I think that assuming you are not an aggressive player, that this is a pull instead of a push.
(this all assumes you have position on him, but I dont understand who is where in the hand. Also, is this is a full table?)

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

given that 3 people called a raise there is at least one a-2 out there, and it is quite likly that the CO has it, plus something else... given that the button is a moron, this is the perfect place to put in a decent raise, this could easily trap the button is he has anything semi-decent like a-2 or hopfully a-3 with some kinda two-pair/straight draw/flush draw. The other advantage of this is that the co being a good player he may fold his naked a-2 to a big raise leaving you alone with the button and hopfully taking his $300. ANd even if this makes the button fold, your hand beats the vast majority of hands that are out there so you dont even hate it if you go to war with the CO. In my opinion a decent raise here is the way to go.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

Just call. In this spot, you can try and play poker a little. If all three of you get allin, you are probably hoping for a 2 or an A. Playing a bit passive may also lead the opposition into thinking you don't have the hand you actually have. Or to put it another way, you wouldn't mind seeing the button raise and the TAG foe just calling.

gl

bdd

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

I totally disagree, call is the most non-profit and wrong play here. Most can't fold plain a2, and nobody is going to fold a2 with decent pair on that flop (nor a2 with flushdrwa). If you just call, you kill your value because mostly people are going to keep firing only if they hit flush and then your the one making crying calls. Cause your only cold-calling preflop with monster like A23J ss, nobody is going to put you on that hand anyways.

Raise pot.

Your freerolling the other nutlow, and giving free cards for flushdrwas is not smart. If he has a2 spades and hits, that's poker.

Also if the 3rd player has nutstr8 and is only calling your raise a turn spade will give you good scarecard to get him out of the way.

Also you have protection also if A or 2 hits, which helps you scoop sometimes.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

For some reason, I didnt see this as as being a two suited flop...I thought it was monotone. Being two suited makes it much better to be raising. However it is still an interesting play to just call and see what the idiot does. For example, if he has a3 and the flush draw he may raise. You ideally want to get him into a situation where his suspectedly worse hand is committed and calling might be the route here.

gl

bdd

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

BDD,

I think you have given some of the best PLO8 advice I've read on this forum, so I am reluctant to dish out criticism directed at something you've said. So I will just say simply that I think slow playing big hands in PLO8 is a very overused strategy that in the end winds up costing players more money than it makes them. That doesn't mean that in any one particular instance a slow play might not be correct ... I don't think this instance though, with a 2-spade flop and a pre-flop raise, is correct for a slow play.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

don't worry about the bad player behind you. they tend to:

- chase with bad draws.
- call big bets with nut one way hands that can't improve
- won't fold because they have small stacks.


make it $110 to go. this also gives you leverage against the TAG because you have position and are playing deep.

you can do whatever you want on the turn. bomb it on a blank. bluff at it on a scare card because you're repping some weird two way draw hand. check behind to maintain pot control. use your position.

also, i'd be pouncing on a TAG's bet of $30 into $52.


but seriously, we're playing for stacks here.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

1st of all, this isnt online like most of you, its live, passive play is more common. 2) Just b/c he bet the flop doesnt mean he has the greatest hand ever. (3) Lets look @ our scenarios:
a) He has A2xx
b) He has A2xxss
c) He has A3xxss
d) He has A278

With (a) against a solid player, he folds to our r/r
b) He will 3b us ai probably.
c) He may 3b or may call and fold missed turn.
d) He is 3b us ai probably

So we now have 4 different situations where he would always get a call and maybe a fire in on the turn. Now lets look at these same situations on the turn if we call the flop.
a) He MAY fire out on turn. He could c/c turn and possibly river. We lose value against an A and a 2
b) He probably bet/3b ai here.
c) Possibly bet/calling or bet/3b ai
d) He is bet/3b

You see the range of hands that you can still get it easily ai on turn or river, he may even fire out a bluff or something one the turn. Or you can be getting (b) in a much worse scenario if it doesnt come on the turn.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

I did say Interesting play. By which I meant not that common. My first mistake was not reading the original hand history [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] A lot of this depends on the psychology of the bad player on the button. If by just calling, you might make him raise with say A3 and a set or A3 and a flush draw, then you might get the "interesting" situation where he is allin, then your good foe just calls. You can then go allin and get maximum value from your hand with a good likelihood to scoop. I realised I never expounded on this last part. Which was what was in my head, but I was using my usual terse style. So its not really a slowplay except to catch the button, then you get it allin. But it would be the exception and foe specific.

gl

bdd

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

Sorry about the typo in the OP, but the raiser is from MP and I am in the CO. I will get back to these responses as well as post the next action in a couple of hours when I have time to go through it. Thanks a lot for the feedback!

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know how the good players view you? I mean I think this is key. He made a .5psb so this could be a A2 bet or something like that. They only have $300 at the beginning of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
They view me as a solid player.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, is this is a full table?)

[/ QUOTE ]
I think there were 7 people at the table at this time.

I decided to just call. Looking back on it, I think it is a bad play. My reasoning at the time, however, was that I was afraid MP had a big hand, such as A278 or A266 with spades. I am mostly a NLHE player, so I am still working on my O8 game, namely being more aggressive with made hands. Anyway, after I called, the button folded so it is heads up to the turn, which is the jack of hearts.

Board: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Pot=$112)

MP checks to me. I bet 75, he calls. The river is the 6 of spades.

Board: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (Pot=$262)

MP bets out 150. I curse myself for not betting the flop and turn hard and call. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

Not rr preflop is a huge mistake.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

at least calling? have i died and went to crazy land? get it all in and be happy to get it all in.

you're afraid mp might have a big hand? you have a big hand. you have a huge hand. are you waiting to flop a straight flush?

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not rr preflop is a huge mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

You have to jam this pot, imo.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

Brat,

If the river has suddenly hit him, and he's TAG like you said, then he had A2 and a good draw. He was *never* passing on the flop. So all you have done, assuming you are now being quartered, is save money. But that wasn't the reason I advocated calling in the first place. The reason to call was to try and manufacture an allin coup against the two remaining players. Another way of looking at the weakness of raising on the flop is that if the button is weak, he will almost certainly now pass, having seen the two tighties ahead of him going to war. It also gives the tight player a place to pass. You might decieve him into sticking with an A3 or a completley naked A2. He would definately pass the former and *could* pass the latter to a raise from a player with your image.

Gl

bdd

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

Slow playing reduces your value here. If the TAG has you beat on the flop (which you should not assume) you have to pay him off. Otherwise, you should be charging both villains the max to chase their draws. Just calling flop may have saved you money this time b/c of 5th, but it's not the correct play.

There was a good chance the TAG would have checked the A278 to you, so you should not be fearful of being quartered here.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

I'm guessing you neither read my responses properly, nor play much plo8b, nor ever play it live. That's a lot of nors.

gl

bdd

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

bdd,

Funny thing is after our brief exchange above (and your appreciated explanation), I played a flopped nut flush (two high cards) your way with two other players, wound up having them both go all in (one had K flush the other had top set), the hand held up, and I felt I maximized my profit by playing the hand that way. So don't think your strategy discussion has been entirely wasted.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

Do we think that he is not going to bet the turn on a non-spade board? I dont understand this. The turn is a spade ~1/3 of the time. If he bets 1/2psb-psb, then the pot is $450 and he has to call on the turn with pretty much any 2 decent cards and you could be freerolling to win the whole pot (he might have A3ss or something like that). I think that the board pairing is not something you should ever worry about. As played, I shove turn expecting to quarter him a decent amount of the time. And if he does have A2ss, then you have 4 outs to half the pot. But b/c you played it so passively, he could try and push you off an A2 with A2PP or something like that

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

Tx Niss,

In general, there is a huge tendancy for advice in both PLO games to be of the kind, "smash it in on the flop." There are probably two main reasons for this, imho. One is the curse of 2+2, GroupThink, the other is that it is easy. But sometimes, this is poker, and well, you can actually *play* poker through the streets. Enjoy your game, plo8b is about as good live as it gets.

gl

bdd

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

In general? I hope not. In this hand there is no reason for not putting money in on the flop, but there are lots of situtations where I don't like putting money all-in on the flop.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

Where was that game ?

I have played in many pokerrooms in the last 2 years ( reno, vegas, LA, AC, foxwoods ) & the only room where I saw PLO8 was the RIO during the WSOP !

- jpp

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where was that game ?

I have played in many pokerrooms in the last 2 years ( reno, vegas, LA, AC, foxwoods ) & the only room where I saw PLO8 was the RIO during the WSOP !

- jpp

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not in a casino.

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
But sometimes, this is poker, and well, you can actually *play* poker through the streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

but CardRunners has advised me to always fire on all streets to maintain the initiative????

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 2/5 PLO8 Live
 

My best CardRunners quote was for PLO, where Aba said he liked to raise with suited aces, get reraised, hopefully by AA, so he could call and stack with a pair and the flush draw on the flop. Interesting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

gl

dd