Benifits of the straddle
 

is it just me or is straddling only for hyper-aggresive folk, or people that are on steam? i really dont see the benefit in it, yet it happens so often in the live games i play.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

---edit title needed---i know

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

They want to get more money in the pot, essentially raising the stakes in a no limit game, because they are better than other people. [Edit: this is why decent players might do it. Gamblers do it to gamble] The reason the stakes are essentially raised is that in order to give proper pot odds (or deny pot odds, etc), a raiser now has to raise more to get the same effect.

In limit games this does not have the same effect, really, because it just makes it more profitable for people to chase. However, most people in limit games do not take the extra money into consideration and attempt to win it right away, so I like it when people straddle. The same goes for kill pots in kill games, people do not up the aggression to try to win the pot early, and profit on the temporarily raised stakes.

If a lot of people are straddling I'll do it because I want to keep the action going.

There is a neat trick I saw once. Get a straddle amount and tie it together with a rubber band. Explain to people that whoever wins the next pot from you gets this bundle but should use it to straddle when it's their turn - and whoever wins that pot will get the bundle and should do the same. Sometimes it gets a lot of straddles going, sometimes not.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

what is a kill pot?

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

Some games are played with a kill qualifier. Whenever a player wins a pot that meats the qualifier (usually a pot of a given size or larger) he gets a kill button. If he wins a second pot that meets the qualifier, the stakes double (if it's a full kill game) or increase by 50% (if it's a half kill game).

Also, the player who won those two pots has to post an extra blind which is double the big blind, and gets to act last preflop.

If you have the kill button and you lose a hand, the kill button goes to someone else and the process starts again.

So a 4/8 full kill game, when the kill is on, moves to 8/16 and the guy with the kill button post a $8 blind.

There is some emergent behavior in these pots that you should take advantage of:
* loose players are often less willing to play as loose, because there is more money in the pot
* passive players are less likely to call you down because the bet sizes are out of their comfort zone
* people don't stop to think that there's a little extra money in the pot

If you can be the first person to raise then you get to make everyone call $16 right off the bat when they're used to calling $4 or $8. The same thing happens if there's a straddle on, if you are the first person in you can raise and make people call more $ than they're used to. There's much more in the pot than usual, so it becomes worth it to try to end the hand preflop or on the flop and steal the whole thing.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

There are no benefits to a straddle. Only numbnuts want to voluntarily put extra money in a pot without the benefit of seeing their cards.

It's ok as a fun element but if you are playing to win money it is the pits.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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There are no benefits to a straddle. Only numbnuts want to voluntarily put extra money in a pot without the benefit of seeing their cards.

It's ok as a fun element but if you are playing to win money it is the pits.

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This is just out and out wrong from a table-image perspective. You want a happy fun gambling table. If you occaisonally have to throw away 1bb to get that, so be it. (And really it's not like you lose 1bb every time, because sometimes you have a hand)

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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what is a kill pot?

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A kill pot is when someone (in a kill game) wins two pots in a row the next pot becomes a "Kill pot" which means that the betting increments double. There are some rules for it too For example at my local casino, at 3/6 limit, if I win any pot, the dealer will toss me a "leg up" button. If I win the next pot and it is over 40 dollars the next pot will be a "kill pot" and it will be 6/12 limit for one hand.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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There are no benefits to a straddle. Only numbnuts want to voluntarily put extra money in a pot without the benefit of seeing their cards.

It's ok as a fun element but if you are playing to win money it is the pits.

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This is just out and out wrong from a table-image perspective. You want a happy fun gambling table. If you occaisonally have to throw away 1bb to get that, so be it. (And really it's not like you lose 1bb every time, because sometimes you have a hand)

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No, I don't want a happy fun gambling table - I want to win. I did actually say as a fun element this is ok (some fun home games I will staddle). For winning poker it is just plain wrong. The OP was asking for the benefits and I assume he meant for winning poker and not having a bit of fun.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

yes there are benefits to it...

1. the straddle combined w/ other plays can create a loose image. some will think u r there to gamble. u can use this to ur advantage later by gettin paid off big when u hit ur big hand.

2. u r a tight player. the table has been pretty loose (good 4 u) but after loosin a couple of players it's been pretty darn nitty (bad 4 u). u can use the straddle to create a couple of big pots and encourage other players to straddle themselves. this will make everyone become a lot looser. on a couple of occasions i've been able to turn a nit table into full gambol. so i know it works.

3. some people straddle so that when it comes around to them they can raise big and take all that dead money from the limpers who put down 2 BBs each. u can use this to ur advantage too. be observant as to how people react to a big raise from the straddler. if it seems to be working try it urself. of course try to come up w/ the minimum amount that will do the trick and it will be a profitable play. also, there's people who like to limp in w/ good hands b/c they're expectin the straddler to make that big raise. if u know there's a couple of players @ ur table that will do this then it's a good idea to straddle. when u get a big hand on one of ur straddles u'll get paid off by one of the nonbelievers who's already waitin for u to raise. it's hard for those kind of people to put u on any sort of hand, especially if they've seen u try the move before.

4. u can also use it to ur advantage to keep the table friendly. if a lot of people at the table r straddlin and they ask me to do it too i almost always do. if i'm the best player @ the table, especially @ one of those tables where players apparently just want to throw $ @ me, i want to keep it friendly. Rek said he's not there for a happy fun gamblin table but he's there to win. well me too. but in that kinda scenario i don't want to be taken too seriously. i want people to think i'm there to just have a good time like they are. i've even bought a person or two a drink to keep everythin "friendly". it turns out it keepin it "friendly" keeps them in donation mood all night long.

i can think of other situations where i've used the straddle but i'm goin to bed now so i ain't writin no more. the point is it is not useless and it should always have a well-planned purpose.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

Julio, you can do all of the above without a straddle. If you want to keep it jolly and loose you can do that anyway. A stradle is simply a big big blind. In a serious game I am putting no money into a pot without looking - it is -EV. If others want to do it fine, I will be more than happy for them to do so.

If it is such a positive thing to do then go ahead and straddle every game you play. It is only for fun entertainment and not a serious game. That is my point.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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There is a neat trick I saw once. Get a straddle amount and tie it together with a rubber band. Explain to people that whoever wins the next pot from you gets this bundle but should use it to straddle when it's their turn - and whoever wins that pot will get the bundle and should do the same. Sometimes it gets a lot of straddles going, sometimes not.


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This is known in some circles as a "rock" (no. . .not that kind of rock). In my experience it is very good for action.

I remember being in a game one time where the question was brought up as to whether you could use the "rock" to raise (a minraise) preflop prior to the hand you would be the straddle. The other players at the table who chimed in figured, sure, you COULD do that, but that'd be pretty dumb as you would be giving up your ability to straddle when the time came (God bless those guys).

Straddles are generally great for the game as they encourage action and get people gambooooling. The only times I've ever done it was when I was at a table where the whole table agreed to straddle. We did it for about 4 hours and it was a great game.

Whenever people try to get me to straddle in normal circumstances I usually just say somethin' to the effect that I pulled a hammy playin' basketball and the doc said no straddling for a month.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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Julio, you can do all of the above without a straddle. If you want to keep it jolly and loose you can do that anyway. A stradle is simply a big big blind. In a serious game I am putting no money into a pot without looking - it is -EV. If others want to do it fine, I will be more than happy for them to do so.

If it is such a positive thing to do then go ahead and straddle every game you play. It is only for fun entertainment and not a serious game. That is my point.

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You've missed the point. Its called "metagame."
There is no doubt that a straddle is a -EV event on that hand. Not as bad in NL as Limit, but you would never be justified in putting in an extra bet, out of position, without looking at your cards.

Unless, it helps loosen your image at the table and helps conceal the fact that you play 19/12/4 when pretty much everyone else is running at 50/2/.33. And 2 BBs is a lot cheaper than most ways to look like a gambler. Especially if 2-3 other guys are straddling as well.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

The point of a happy fun gambling table is not to have fun. It's to make the table gamble, so you can take advantage of them. If that means occaisonally throwing 1 extra bet into the pot so that they will happily throw in dozens, so much the better.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

meh even with all these arguements for why "good" players do it, I'm not convinced. there are other ways to juice the pot when you have a hand then tossing in the straddle.

the only real valid arguement i like is to increase the "fun" of the game. it does spice things up a lot.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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meh even with all these arguements for why "good" players do it, I'm not convinced. there are other ways to juice the pot when you have a hand then tossing in the straddle.

the only real valid arguement i like is to increase the "fun" of the game. it does spice things up a lot.

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Exactly

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

At the RIO last week, they were allowing a button straddle. I'd never seen this before and didn't see it anywhere else. I don't play a lot of live so I don't know if this is common or even allowed most places. This obv. has very different implications than the traditional straddle.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

I only straddle in Mississippi.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

I average about 6bb/hr live. Putting 2bb into the pot on every orbit (in addition to my blinds) where I will usually fold to any raise, and play OOP in any unraised pot seems like a great way to put a serious dent in my win rate. I just don't think any "loosening up" of the table from my straddle will compensate for the 6bb+/hr extra money that I put in blind from bad position.

However, I kind of like it when others straddle. I lets the pot play bigger when I have good hands. Sometimes, if the straddler likes to over-raise his straddle a lot, I can even deep limp with AA and kill the straddler when he over-raises with 77-AA/AJ+.

Also, metagame is overrated at most live games. The solid regulars won't be fooled. The gambling LAGs and social calling stations won't notice.

Better metagame considerations might be calling with a wider range than expected on the button so you can show down 84s on a 744 flop when you stack some guy with AA in EP who didn't raise enough preflop relative to your effective stacks. Or raising UTG with 78s (planning to fold to a reraise). Or whatever... Straddling blind isn't as good as other means of mixing up your game for "metagame" purposes vs people with whom you play regularly.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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I average about 6bb/hr live. Putting 2bb into the pot on every orbit (in addition to my blinds) where I will usually fold to any raise, and play OOP in any unraised pot seems like a great way to put a serious dent in my win rate. I just don't think any "loosening up" of the table from my straddle will compensate for the 6bb+/hr extra money that I put in blind from bad position.

However, I kind of like it when others straddle. I lets the pot play bigger when I have good hands. Sometimes, if the straddler likes to over-raise his straddle a lot, I can even deep limp with AA and kill the straddler when he over-raises with 77-AA/AJ+.

Also, metagame is overrated at most live games. The solid regulars won't be fooled. The gambling LAGs and social calling stations won't notice.

Better metagame considerations might be calling with a wider range than expected on the button so you can show down 84s on a 744 flop when you stack some guy with AA in EP who didn't raise enough preflop relative to your effective stacks. Or raising UTG with 78s (planning to fold to a reraise). Or whatever... Straddling blind isn't as good as other means of mixing up your game for "metagame" purposes vs people with whom you play regularly.

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+1

But button straddling forcing SB to act first preflop (i.e. Mississippi straddle) is not -EV in my experience.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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I average about 6bb/hr live. Putting 2bb into the pot on every orbit (in addition to my blinds) where I will usually fold to any raise, and play OOP in any unraised pot seems like a great way to put a serious dent in my win rate. I just don't think any "loosening up" of the table from my straddle will compensate for the 6bb+/hr extra money that I put in blind from bad position.

However, I kind of like it when others straddle. I lets the pot play bigger when I have good hands. Sometimes, if the straddler likes to over-raise his straddle a lot, I can even deep limp with AA and kill the straddler when he over-raises with 77-AA/AJ+.

Also, metagame is overrated at most live games. The solid regulars won't be fooled. The gambling LAGs and social calling stations won't notice.

Better metagame considerations might be calling with a wider range than expected on the button so you can show down 84s on a 744 flop when you stack some guy with AA in EP who didn't raise enough preflop relative to your effective stacks. Or raising UTG with 78s (planning to fold to a reraise). Or whatever... Straddling blind isn't as good as other means of mixing up your game for "metagame" purposes vs people with whom you play regularly.

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i agree

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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+1

But button straddling forcing SB to act first preflop (i.e. Mississippi straddle) is not -EV in my experience.

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Good to know.... as I said don't play live often and didn't know about it. Is this fairly common? Is it allowed most places?

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

The only area where I've seen the Mississippi (button) straddle permitted is in Tunica...and what I witnessed was that the button had first priority to straddle, then the cut-off, etc....all the way down to the traditional straddle position UTG.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

Obviously putting in a blind raise is bad.

And in LHE, it's even worse, since most bad players (at low/mid stakes at least) call too often, and the extra money in the pot from the straddle makes their calls "less bad," or even good on occasion.

However, in specific circumstances, straddling can be profitable (although I suppose this can be said about most things).

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

so i tried to introduce the mississippi straddle in my home game...lets just say it didnt go over too well.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

Well, at home games I attend, I usually do it a couple of times at the beginning, just to set the tone. People always catch up with this and I find it a whole lot easier to play when someone straddles...

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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meh even with all these arguements for why "good" players do it, I'm not convinced. there are other ways to juice the pot when you have a hand then tossing in the straddle.

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Really? What are some of your "other ways" for doing this when, as you say, you have a hand? Because if I've seen you for more than a couple of orbits and you're playing ABC 22/17-type poker, believe you me, I'm not putting dime one into a pot you've "juiced" without a very good reason.

Even for your average non-2+2'er, first impressions are extremely powerful at live tables. If the first thing you do is sit down and blind straddle a few pots, people are going to tag you as a "maniac" or an "action junkie" even if you play 22/17 the rest of the time. And you're almost certainly going to get many times more action on your great hands than someone who doesn't see a flop for the first hour and then tries to come out guns blazing.

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the only real valid arguement i like is to increase the "fun" of the game. it does spice things up a lot.

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And my point being that in some games - not all games, not even many games, but in more than you'd think - "spicing things up" can yield an order of magnitude more EV than you're losing through the straddle. Refusing to take advantage of these situations when they pop up simply because you're standing on principle borders on criminal.

Mook

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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meh even with all these arguements for why "good" players do it, I'm not convinced. there are other ways to juice the pot when you have a hand then tossing in the straddle.

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Really? What are some of your "other ways" for doing this when, as you say, you have a hand? Because if I've seen you for more than a couple of orbits and you're playing ABC 22/17-type poker, believe you me, I'm not putting dime one into a pot you've "juiced" without a very good reason.

Even for your average non-2+2'er, first impressions are extremely powerful at live tables. If the first thing you do is sit down and blind straddle a few pots, people are going to tag you as a "maniac" or an "action junkie" even if you play 22/17 the rest of the time. And you're almost certainly going to get many times more action on your great hands than someone who doesn't see a flop for the first hour and then tries to come out guns blazing.

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the only real valid arguement i like is to increase the "fun" of the game. it does spice things up a lot.

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siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

the holes in this post are so large i shouldn't even need to comment....how do you juice the pot without straddling...are you serious? and you WANT to be labeled as a maniac? a LAG image is fine but a maniac image is not profitable.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

Some of the nitty replies here are only thinking of poker on a simplistic level.

All this "I don't play poker to have fun, so don't care if the game has a fun atmosphere or not. I only play to make money" is just totally the wrong way of thinking about being a winning poker player. A 'fun atmosphere' where the players are wanting to gamble allows you to make much more money than a tight, unfriendly, cut-throat game where every player is wearing sunglasses and tanking on every decision. Sometimes doing little things - like straddling - to promote 'fun' in a game will lead to your EV increasing.

I get frustrated when I see some of these young kids come and play live. They have mainly played online and they read 2+2. They think they are maximising their EV at all times, and look down their noses at other players. And they do all sorts of things which actually make the game they are playing in much less profitable. They wear sunglasses. They dwell on EVERY decision. They talk to their friends about poker at the table, using terms like 'EV' or 'fold equity'. They insist on every little technicality, like calling a string bet when a half-drunk fish does not put his chips in quite correctly. And they do all these things thinking they are maximising their profit. But by making the game less fun and more cut-throat they are actually reducing their profit.

Meanwhile, an old time pro is winning twice as much as them and has been doing so for years. He seems to get on with everyone, especially the weak players. He tries to avoid pulling people up on minor technicalities because he realises this spoils the flow of the game and antagonises the weak players. He does everything he can to prevent the game having a cut-throat atmosphere because he knows that this will reduce his profits. And he sometimes straddles.

The young internet kids may see him occasionally make the odd play that is 'technically incorrect', but he'll continue to win more in the live games than they will. One of the reasons is that he understands that a winning poker player is in the entertainment business, and that the PR stuff is really important. Live poker is not like the internet. Games have to be nurtured and fed in order to keep them as good, profitable games.

Straddling may not normally be 'profitable' in and of itself (although Mississipi straddling from the button has to be different). But it sometimes can be profitable in a variety of indirect ways: It stimulates action in future hands; It helps promote a friendly, gambling game; It encourages others to straddle; It prevents you getting an overly tight image etc.

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and you WANT to be labeled as a maniac? a LAG image is fine but a maniac image is not profitable.

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What are you basing this assertion on?

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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and you WANT to be labeled as a maniac? a LAG image is fine but a maniac image is not profitable.

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What are you basing this assertion on?

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And what are you basing your whole post on? Some wily old pro who knows how to mix his game up well? Nobody is arguing the fact that you should not mix your play up and be unpredictable. That is all part of being a good live player. It just seems that you and some others cannot accept you can do this without a straddle.

The question was "benefits of the straddle" not "benefits of mixing up your game". A straddle is putting money in blind. How can that possibly be +EV. Yes you will win some pots by being lucky but long term it cannot be a profitable play IMHO.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

thank you rek, you saved me the time...

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

Someone just randomly straddling once is throwing away money - absolutely.

Someone getting the straddle started or just going along with it can help improve game conditions. It's generally worth that to me as an investment.

I can recall one pot where I won a substantial amount shortly after I had straddled along with a couple other guys (it was one of their straddles) - my victim even admitted that he thought I was just goofing around again and didn't put me on a real hand.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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helps conceal the fact that you play 19/12/4 when pretty much everyone else is running at 50/2/.33. And 2 BBs is a lot cheaper than most ways to look like a gambler. Especially if 2-3 other guys are straddling as well.

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QFMFT

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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and you WANT to be labeled as a maniac? a LAG image is fine but a maniac image is not profitable.

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What are you basing this assertion on?

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And what are you basing your whole post on? Some wily old pro who knows how to mix his game up well? Nobody is arguing the fact that you should not mix your play up and be unpredictable. That is all part of being a good live player. It just seems that you and some others cannot accept you can do this without a straddle.

The question was "benefits of the straddle" not "benefits of mixing up your game". A straddle is putting money in blind. How can that possibly be +EV. Yes you will win some pots by being lucky but long term it cannot be a profitable play IMHO.

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My point was that straddling was one possible way to influence certain important factors such as image, game conditions and table texture. Voluntarily putting money into the pot before you have been dealt your cards is clearly -EV when looked at in the most literal sense. Obvioualy. But sometimes it can have other more intangible benefits that might compensate, and might even make this a +EV move. For example, straddling once or twice may do any or all of the following things:
1) Loosen up a tight table by promoting a gambling mentality.
2) Give you the image of a loose gambler and lead to you getting more action on future hands.
3) Encourage other players to straddle.

Would you not agree that - in the right circumstances - these factors might more than make up for the small loss you have voluntarily taken on by straddling? In my experience I have often seen someone straddling a few times open up a tight game and make it more profitable to play in for the next few hours. I have also seen someone posting a straddle and this leading to another player choosing to straddle every pot for the next two hours!

Of course there are other ways to mix things up, improve your table image, and influence the actions of other players. I am not saying that straddling is the only way to do this, or the best way. I am certainly not suggesting - as you accuse me of - that it is impossible to mix up your play and be unpredictable without straddling. All I am arguing is that straddling is one possible way to influence these factors.

To be honest, I am not even arguing that straddling is profitable. I am just pointing out that it can have benefits in the right circumstances, and that sometimes these may make it a +EV move.

So, in answer to your question: I am basing my post on a reasoned argument coupled with my own experience of seeing how someone straddling can influence game conditions. You may not agree with my reasoning, and you may have had different experiences in your own live play. That's ok.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

So i decided to straddle a few times in 1/2 NL 100 max @ the majestic...

first time i did so, an mid position player raised to 15 and i looked down at 33... whats your play there?

the next 3 times i did it i got bottom of the barrel hands, i mean like the worst.

after that i decided to quit straddling and ended up having a pretty good session. still on the fence though

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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+1

But button straddling forcing SB to act first preflop (i.e. Mississippi straddle) is not -EV in my experience.

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Good to know.... as I said don't play live often and didn't know about it. Is this fairly common? Is it allowed most places?

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it's allowed in Leeds, where you can straddle from any position. so the guy on my right kept straddling, meaning i was always UTG pf. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

I don't think you can discuss straddle w/o talking about stack size. If you are playing deep then the straddle can benefit the good player who can win bigger pots by outplaying the weak players. However, I play in a home game where a couple donks out of the lot of us play w/ 40-50 bbs in front of them. They always want to straddle cuz they ARE there to gamble. In this case I don't like the staddle because it becomes like a tournament when it's an all in fest. IMO it jacks up the variance factor for the donk and leaves me w/o any play post flop.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

Thank you CurryLover. I agree 100% with your response to all who say the straddle is negative EV and should never be done. It is, in my experience one of the best ways to pull the game out of the muck. Granted you are the one making the monetary sacrifice but... from my perspective, a prof. poker player is also the custodian of a good game. If the atmosphere is 'fun' then the weaker players enjoy showing up. The money they lose, assuming they have a lot of it, can be viewed as entertainment expenses. If you get a good game going, donators will show up on a regular basis. The straddle (and sleeper) is all part of the mix.

I'd also argue that the straddle often takes weaker players out of their comfort zone and forces them to play bigger pots then they are used to.

I love the straddle, even to the extent that it is a leak in my game.

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

Yeah stack sizes are super important. Like in the 1-2 $100 game mentioned, I want to shove 33 there after one raise to 15. And that kind've sucks for a lot of people so thus I wouldn't straddle unless you were deeeper

Re: Benifits of the straddle
 

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+1

But button straddling forcing SB to act first preflop (i.e. Mississippi straddle) is not -EV in my experience.

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Good to know.... as I said don't play live often and didn't know about it. Is this fairly common? Is it allowed most places?

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it's allowed in Leeds, where you can straddle from any position. so the guy on my right kept straddling, meaning i was always UTG pf. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

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I sometimes play in Leeds. Do I know you? I play in the game at Napoleons which is run/dealt by Faz.

By the way, this is one of the annoying things about the Mississipi straddle. But when it happens the other way round (i.e. it is the guy on your left who is straddling every hand) it is fantastic. Guess it evens out in the long run...