Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

Check out the 100-200 stud-8 game.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

ya its huuuge. a friend who plays in those games said barry complained to raymer about it, which is stupid since barry like never plays in the game.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

It was a bad complaint by Barry.

It's true that the old structure made HU or sh play a lot less interesting, but the thing is vastly more Stars players err on the loose side than on the tight side. And the new structure demands very laggy play.

It's also now mandatory to peel 4th the great majority of the time for one bet, which suits the people who always peel anyway.

The one thing that's nice about this I guess is that the passive players will be making a big mistake by not raising their bricked opponents out on 4th.


Edit - Not sure about 'the great majority of the time' but it makes it correct a lot more often now than before.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

yea i agree it is very bad. the negative far outweighs the positive imo

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Check out the 100-200 stud-8 game.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is absurd please please email the [email protected] and ask them to change it back. I am emailing

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

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It's also now mandatory to peel 4th the great majority of the time for one bet, which suits the people who always peel anyway.

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The pot contains ten small bets on fourth street the great majority of the time? In 100-200?

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

Just sent this email to Stars:

Scott, I just read this quote on 2+2:



"ya its huuuge. a friend who plays in those games said barry complained to raymer about it, which is stupid since barry like never plays in the game. "



This is bordering on cheating if Raymer, a PokerStars employee and a somewhat regular in the game, had any input in the decision to change the structure. His style of play in stud HL is very loose and benefits from the unprecedented high ante and bringin. Are you going to increase the blinds in holdem games if Fossilman decides to start playing those games? Why don't you just make a special Fossilman table with the high antes and bringin?

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

Hello Daniel,

I have forwarded your comments, as well as the comments from a few other
players, to the top level management of the company, who made this
decision. They have acknowledged that your opinion is important, and want
to discuss it further with the people who were involved in the original
decision.

The changes that were made were done at the request of some high stakes
players and only after soliciting the opinions of some Team PokerStars
members. It was felt that increasing antes and bring-ins would increase
action in the games by having more money to fight for from the start.

As you might imagine, Management also wants to monitor the effect of this
structure on the games for a little while before deciding whether to make
any further changes. While you feel strongly that this is a negative
change, it's just too soon to know what the impact will be on the tables
themselves. There are two games going right now, for example.

If this change turns out to have a negative effect on the games, of course
we will re-evaluate the situation.

Regards,

Scott
PokerStars Support Team

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

Speaking about the 100-200, does anyone know who the aggro winforever is?

Somebody mentioned its a woman which I find a bit unlikely as far as the style of play is concerned(maybe I am overeacting).
+ 1 year ago she/he was playing 1-2 on ps. How the hell did that big leap in limits happen?

The higher bring-in would defenitely suit her/his style though.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

I agree, women are weak

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

Why on earth do you think you need 10:1 to peel 4th?

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

Changing the structure of a game isn't anything like cheating.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Changing the structure of a game isn't anything like cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I know that Raymer was responsible for this, but it's an unfair advantage for one player to have the power to radically change the structure of a game to his advantage, and it's very bothersome if he is able to do this behind the scenes so that the other players don't even know why the structure has changed.

Of course, I'm pissed off about this. The 100/200 stud HL on PokerStars started in the middle of April and in the last few weeks has been very popular so that i can 3table it occasionally. It was always $15 ante and $30 bringin including Friday morning 10/19. Than all of a sudden on Friday afternoon I sit down again and I thought I was in some strange game where the ante was $25. PokerStars always gives an annoying popup warning when you join a fast table, but somehow they didnt feel obliged to warn that the structure had just changed from 30 minutes earlier.

If it had been like this all along, fine. Now, any conclusions that experienced players have arrived at about correct play on any street is thrown out the window. If some PokerStars favored high stakes player decides on a whim for another change, all experience at the new structure will be useless, so I don't feel it is worth my time to learn a brand new game.

I have no idea how the other regulars feel. Most of the amateurs probably dont care, but I find it hard to believe there was a general excitement for this new structure. I assume the typical 30/60 player who gives 1/2 an occasional shot will have second thoughts, since it will now play like 200/400 on early streets.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

I've been triple tabling stud a few times myself. Glad to know I'm not the only one, as I was fearing maybe this isn't optimal 99.9%.

Someday, I may even step up to 4 stud tables at once, but this would only be for HI games of course.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been triple tabling stud a few times myself. Glad to know I'm not the only one, as I was fearing maybe this isn't optimal 99.9%.

Someday, I may even step up to 4 stud tables at once, but this would only be for HI games of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 tabling 1/2 is a little different than 100/200 I would think.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

It is highly unlikely that Raymer or any other individual player is responsible for the change. And anyway, so what? The game changes, you adapt. That's what poker players do. Those that can't or won't adapt give up and go away. This has been going on for decades. A lot of the old guard in California couldn't adapt when the action changed from draw games to hold'em and stud. When they went from one blind to two in LHE, that hurt a lot of tight players. Poker has been evolving for about 200 years and will continue to do so. You can adapt, or you can find honest work.

And I think a lot of folks make too much of different ante structures. Especially for stud/8, the mix of hands that you played with the $15 ante shouldn't change all that much with the $25 ante. It's not like you're suddenly going to play T98 or K44. How you play you hands might change a bit, but I don't think it should be too dramatic. The bottom line as always is that you're probably going to have to show down the best hand in order to win. If you were beating the old game for, say, 1 BB/100, I would guess that you could beat the new game for a small amount with no adjustment. If this game was worthwhile for you before, I don't see how it can't be now.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

hah my pestering paid off

Hello Daniel,

I want to let you know that the decision has been made to reduce the ante
to $20 and the force bet to $35. The change has actually already been
made in the system; for obvious reasons the game that's going on right now
won't change until it breaks down and re-starts; we can't change a game
that's in progress. The "fast" version of the $100/$200 is already
deployed at the new structure.

I hope everyone will be happy with this middle ground.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

Greg had nothing to do with it.

I have been trying to get someone to sit with me in the 500-1000 and 1000-2000 HORSE, so I can see what the ante and bring-in are. I assumed the ante is too low, based on the straight stud and stud hi/lo structures.

When you play with better players (presumably for higher stakes), it's standard to make the ante 20% or 25% of the small bet. In most casinos, the highest stake game with less than a 20% ante is the 30-60 game, which has a $5 ante and a $10 bring-in. The reason the ante ratio is higher in bigger games is to reward poker skill more than starting hand selection.

I e-mailed the top people and said that the structure was too tight in the 100-200 game and I assumed it was too tight in the bigger HORSE games also. They told me Daniel said the same thing when he played.

They said they would change it in the next build, which was wierd because I often have to argue my point to get changes made. I think the combination of me and Daniel was enough for them to make a quick change.

Unfortunately, they didn't tell us what the change would be. They showed me written complaints and I saw this thread and I said I agree that a bring-in in of 50% is too high. I told them to try a $20 ante with a $30 bring-in. I think this is right for the skill level of the $100-$200.

I guess if there are some absurdly loose players who play in the game, the sharks would want the ante ratio to be less. I hope this new change will be OK. The $15 ante seemed absurdly low and stops some action players from sitting down.


Barry

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

i always thought $15 was kinda low and the FTP game has a $25 ante... $20 seems a reasonable compromise though.

Barry, can you push for some more mid limit mix game tables, like 100/200 HORSE and TD (and 200/400 etc). Some of us would like to play 5/1k with you one day but its a bit of a leap from 30/60 ;-)

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i always thought $15 was kinda low and the FTP game has a $25 ante... $20 seems a reasonable compromise though.

Barry, can you push for some more mid limit mix game tables, like 100/200 HORSE and TD (and 200/400 etc). Some of us would like to play 5/1k with you one day but its a bit of a leap from 30/60 ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have asked for 100-200, but they are afraid of busting the 10-20 to 30-60 players who move up when they are losing.

This will probably have to wait until the UIEGA is repealed, so that there is more money and players on the site who would want to play at these levels regularly.

Barry

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]

And I think a lot of folks make too much of different ante structures. Especially for stud/8, the mix of hands that you played with the $15 ante shouldn't change all that much with the $25 ante. It's not like you're suddenly going to play T98 or K44.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is dead wrong actually. The "new" (but now superseded) structure should change play a lot on 3rd and 4th street.

The most extreme situation is where everyone folds to the 2nd to last player. He used to be getting 1.5:1 on a steal... now he's getting an incredible 2.5:1.

In a nutshell this makes it mandatory for BI to defend with almost any 2 low cards and for the other guy to try to steal with any 2 low cards himself, or any 3 big cards. (This is just my off the cuff estimate.)

Absolutely any pair or 3 straight becomes playable in this situation now. (Ignoring dead cards.)

This also makes a big difference in a hu match. Big card goes from 60:100 to 150:100 on a steal. The old structure penalized the overaggro players who thought they should constantly try to steal... the new structure makes their play correct.

Also in non-headsup spots playing razz hands for a steal or against a completion become correct far more often than before.

Finally on 4th any peel that would have been slightly incorrect now becomes significantly correct with the extra $100 in there.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

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In a nutshell this makes it mandatory for BI to defend with almost any 2 low cards....

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I doubt this very much.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In a nutshell this makes it mandatory for BI to defend with almost any 2 low cards....

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I doubt this very much.

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Try some math.

If last to act is getting 2.5:1 on a steal he only needs it to work 28.6% of the time to show an *automatic* profit.

If BI starts with a low card up he will have 3 low cards 35% of the time, a buried big pair 3.5% of the time, and a 3-flush (without 3 low) 2.4% of the time. He will a split pair with a K-9 kicker 4.7% of the time.

(I have left out 3-straights that include high cards such as 987 and T98.)

All that adds up to 44.4% of our distribution.

So stealer is still showing an automatic profit of around $90.

(NB I am two-tabling as I write this so I could be making a heinous math error somewhere.)

So if the foregoing is true and you are not defending with a large % of your 2-low hands, then stealer should clearly raise 100%.

And if stealer is raising 100% you clearly should play all but your worst hands (and probably even them in some spots).

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars. *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by roggles

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're not taking into account that making the call on 3rd street is not closing the action. You assume defending your BI is just about calling once and then that's it. In fact you might have to call on every street, and then you're getting much closer to 1:1 on your money

[/ QUOTE ]


No, I'm not assuming this at all.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

Ohps, yeah, I barely even read what you said. I thought we were regurgitating the usual reason as to why we should always call with junk on the BI. I'm sorry.

Anyway, yes, if people fold early people coming in late have a huge steal advantage. I still think it would be pretty bad to call with a two low in stud8, since this is just absurdly difficult to play on later streets with the 8 qualifier in place. I much rather prefer to punish theft by raising good low hands and hands with some type of high potential.

Are you taking into account that the stealer will be raised and usually won't fold a fair amount of the time?

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ohps, yeah, I barely even read what you said. I thought we were regurgitating the usual reason as to why we should always call with junk on the BI. I'm sorry.

Anyway, yes, if people fold early people coming in late have a huge steal advantage. I still think it would be pretty bad to call with a two low in stud8, since this is just absurdly difficult to play on later streets with the 8 qualifier in place. I much rather prefer to punish theft by raising good low hands and hands with some type of high potential.

Are you taking into account that the stealer will be raised and usually won't fold a fair amount of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]


Well I was talking about the extreme case for ante size altering play, which to my mind is when everyone folds to the player who is right before the bring-in.

My argument was that unless you are defending with lots of 2 card low hands (say (K5)2 for example), the person in this position will show an automatic profit raising any hand, which logically should not be the case.

In other words the stealer could fold 100% of the time to a reraise and he would still be showing a profit if we are folding a large % of our 2-low hands.

And FWIW I think if both players are playing optimally the stealer should probably never fold to a reraise from the bringin. If he can't continue with an overlay of 2 BB in the pot he shouldn't have just folded in the first place.

Another point I wonder about is whether the large ante actually means you should start limping in this position more, strange as that may sound.

After all as the ante increases there will be some theoretical point where you can no longer fold anything, even when your distribution is worse than the BI's. (Say you have a 9 up versus the BI's 2.)

But anyway...

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been triple tabling stud a few times myself. Glad to know I'm not the only one, as I was fearing maybe this isn't optimal 99.9%.

Someday, I may even step up to 4 stud tables at once, but this would only be for HI games of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, i often 12 table stud. usually a mixture of high and high low. that's from .50-1 to 10-20 though, not any higher.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

12 tabling?...lol...are you the brainman?

And where do you play you said?
I have never seen anyone playing that many tables on the major 2 sites, and I can't imagine you can find more than 8 active tables on any other one. Ofcourse you might be playing on all of them.

I'd be interested to see some stats if they exist.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

i play on ft, stars, and absolute... and yes, it takes a balance of all three to find 12 tables usually.

Re: Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.
 

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I have asked for 100-200, but they are afraid of busting the 10-20 to 30-60 players who move up when they are losing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ask them for 200/400

- Andrew