You are delt 88...
 

Simple question. Effective stack size is 100$ with .50/1$ blinds. The table play has generally been loose pf. You are utg plus 1 and utg is very tight. UTG raises to 4$. What are you doing with 88, why, and whats your plan.

Furthermore, what are you doing with lower pocket pairs, and higher. What points are you folding/calling/raising?

Re: You are delt 88...
 

Fold if the table is loose agro and a lot of player won't hesitate to squeeze if they see you call. I think I only 3b AK/JJ+ in this condition. Depending on utg and how much my 3b will be respected I might have a wider 3b range thou.

Call if the table is loose passive and you won't be 3b often. I'll call with any pp/scs in this condition and will 3b AK/JJ. Plan is to hit your set.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

I probably call every pair and reraise KK+. If other people are aware that he's very tight the chance of a reraise behind is very small. I might dump AK in this spot depending on specific stats.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

while i understand that point of view chargers, depending on other people at the table to make accurate reads is a very bad strategy in my opinion. You know hes tight, but you may be the only one. You cant know that kind of info.


How passive/agro are we talking to change our decision?

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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while i understand that point of view chargers, depending on other people at the table to make accurate reads is a very bad strategy in my opinion. You know hes tight, but you may be the only one. You cant know that kind of info.


How passive/agro are we talking to change our decision?

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Even at NL50 if there is someone with at all decent stats there is a good chance they are using pokertracker. You'd be surprised, i've seen extremely bad fish talking about other people's VP$IP

Re: You are delt 88...
 

I thinking expecting anything of a table when you dont most of them is bad. And while this hand is online, what if it is live?

Or do people agree its ok to rely on opponents giving a tight utg raiser respect>?

Re: You are delt 88...
 

I think if its a loose passive table I'm calling here. Us calling give the loose passives another excuse to come into the pot and make's it easier to make money on the hand if we hit our set. If its likely to get reraised behind you I think it's a fold.

Probably calling with <KK, raising KK+ and folding everything else because there are so many others left behind us to act.

I think this hand would be simpler live because you might see people getting ready to fold once he made his bet or pick something else up.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

ok.. you said UTG was "very tight". so you are behind his range for sure. the best you can hope for is AK since he's only raising JJ+ and AK UTG.

so if by "loose" you mean that there is very little chance of a reraise, then a call would be fine. But I'm folding 80% of the time if UTG is "very tight".

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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I thinking expecting anything of a table when you dont most of them is bad. And while this hand is online, what if it is live?

Or do people agree its ok to rely on opponents giving a tight utg raiser respect>?

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Live I'm folding this never. Online I'm calling for set value, if I get squeezed I'm reevaluating.

One of the first things I'm determining when I sit down in either situation is whether my opponents are position-aware.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

I call this 100% of the time. The payoff if you hit your set is just too good and most people are probably realizing that this is a tight player as well. If they're not, then they're realizing that it's an utg bet. If you call here I bet several other people start calling behind too for "pot odds" and you make a grip on a flopped 8.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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ok.. you said UTG was "very tight". so you are behind his range for sure. the best you can hope for is AK since he's only raising JJ+ and AK UTG.

so if by "loose" you mean that there is very little chance of a reraise, then a call would be fine. But I'm folding 80% of the time if UTG is "very tight".

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so wrong

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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so wrong

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Now explain why.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

Fold because I am only beating A/K and A/Q. Obv calling is not an option and raising may not guarantee a HU situation.

I'm a nit!!!

Re: You are delt 88...
 

Why do you guys have to be beating him right now? Thats not the point of chasing a set. He is a super tight player and is raising under the gun, he likely has a huge hand... a huge enough hand to pay you off when you hit your set.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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I probably call every pair and reraise KK+.

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I think is is a very bad idea because if you want to play I think you need it heads up.

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If other people are aware that he's very tight the chance of a reraise behind is very small.

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At 100NL there is a very small chance there are that many observant people at the table.

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I might dump AK in this spot depending on specific stats.

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I'm re-raising w/ A/K

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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Why do you guys have to be beating him right now? Thats not the point of chasing a set. He is a super tight player and is raising under the gun, he likely has a huge hand... a huge enough hand to pay you off when you hit your set.

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At a loose table you may be stacking off with a set to a better hand. I just don't like all the redraw possibilities by just calling and set mining.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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Why do you guys have to be beating him right now? Thats not the point of chasing a set. He is a super tight player and is raising under the gun, he likely has a huge hand... a huge enough hand to pay you off when you hit your set.

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At a loose table you may be stacking off with a set to a better hand. I just don't like all the redraw possibilities by just calling and set mining.

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Wow, you are tight. Those redraw issues aren't that common and you can see them coming from a mile away.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

I can understand not calling. But NOT because you want it heads up (???) or that they can redraw (????????).

Also i was going to say what bluegrassplayer said but i thought someone would mention it already.

To be honest i don't like the reasoning behind most of the arguments but at least there is some discussion going.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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Why do you guys have to be beating him right now? Thats not the point of chasing a set. He is a super tight player and is raising under the gun, he likely has a huge hand... a huge enough hand to pay you off when you hit your set.

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At a loose table you may be stacking off with a set to a better hand. I just don't like all the redraw possibilities by just calling and set mining.

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Wow, you are tight. Those redraw issues aren't that common and you can see them coming from a mile away.

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I know. I'm a new NL player and am not yet confident to play these marginal situations post flop yet. I auto fold.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

It's great if he's ultra tight because that is what gives us the implied odds to call his bet and set mine.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

Thats what is so great about this situation though: you aren't playing a marginal situation post flop. If there isn't an 8 on the flop you know you're not good.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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Thats what is so great about this situation though: you aren't playing a marginal situation post flop. If there isn't an 8 on the flop you know you're not good.

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You don't necessarily know this.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

If he's ultra tight and he checks to me I will b/f most flops.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

I guess if the flop comes 7 high and he checks I might bet this, but that doesn't mean that YOU have to. So you do know this, if you don't like just holding a pair of eights after the flop then fold if you don't hit your set no matter what.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

By the way what the hell is your picture? An umpa loompa?

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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Thats what is so great about this situation though: you aren't playing a marginal situation post flop. If there isn't an 8 on the flop you know you're not good.

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You don't necessarily know this.

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no but you can assume you are behind enough that you are still usually just playing this for set value. It is ok to fold with the best hand in this situation, but I think mike is right that b/f to a check works sometimes, though i use it sparingly and this could be profitable w/o this move, especially if you are deep and UTG has trouble folding overpairs

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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so wrong

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Now explain why.

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if he's tight he will have a tighter range/better hand and will be more likely to stack off.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

The only reason not to call would be if the UTG raiser is tight passive and will not pay me off if i hit my set. If he is TAG, i always call.
If people behind me call, it´s even better. I want like 1:10 to call only for set value, and with 2 additional caller behind me i will get 1:3 immediately -> Very easy fold if the board is too ugly and the action indicates that we are beat.

How can we not call here ? I thought we where looking for situations where villains makes the second best hand but keeps betting..

Re: You are delt 88...
 

If you get 3 bet behind, the chance of the UTG raiser not 4 betting/shoving is bad. and thats if the 3 bettor is offering you odds to hit (which he prob wont be)

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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If you get 3 bet behind, the chance of the UTG raiser not 4 betting/shoving is bad. and thats if the 3 bettor is offering you odds to hit (which he prob wont be)

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Was there a relevant point buried somewhere in this?

You don't even mention our position at the table in this question...

ahhhh Under the gun plus one = UTG+1 my bad. just call it, 3betting is not that common at full ring play.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

depends who is behind me. Unless I have people known to be squeezing alot, I call 77-jj 3bet QQ+ . If the table is really loose passive with alot of cold I might play SCs and lower pockets. I would probly also 3 bet lighter.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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Thats what is so great about this situation though: you aren't playing a marginal situation post flop. If there isn't an 8 on the flop you know you're not good.

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You don't know this.

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In fact, if you know villain will c-bet missed overs, there might be an opportunity to take down the pot.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

I call and hope to stack him if i hit a set. If the table is aggro, then i may fold.

With KK+, i re-reaise

all other pocket pairs, i call

Re: You are delt 88...
 

call ldo

if the table is loose you will probably get a lot of callers which is great. no one will raise a tight utg raise unless they have a huge hand or are not paying attention.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

Why are we making this so hard? If he's tight and is range is AK,AQ,JJ+ our hand plays pretty well. There are 32 unpaired combinations and 18 paired ones. Even if we take out AQo, there are still more unpaired than paired combinations. If the flop comes J high, we are going to win this pot a lot just with the value we hold now. If we hit a set, we'll get paid off a lot. We would have to play our hand more carefully in a multiway pot, but that's ok, we get some extra overlay on the times we make sets to compensate.

The larger point here is that we can play a lot of hands against tight players when stacks are deepish. We know what kinds of hands they will play and what sorts of flops hit those hands. Add to that is the habit that some people have of using a full pot bet with an overpair and a smaller bet with a cbet and that argues more stringly for playing a wider range given the extra info.

There are just not many reasons to not play this hand. A squeeze is unlikely. If it is reraised behind, it's a big hand because the EP played has declared that he has a big hand by raising. So, release the 8's. There no good.

Re: You are delt 88...
 

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call ldo

if the table is loose you will probably get a lot of callers which is great. no one will raise a tight utg raise unless they have a huge hand or are not paying attention.

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