AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

No stats on villain yet, but this hand happened about an orbit before the hand in question:

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $117
Hero (SB): $103
BB: $101.50
UTG: $61.45
MP: $35.35
CO: $63.10

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, MP calls $1, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $15</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $38</font>, BB folds

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So anyways, on to the hand in question:

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $103.20
Hero (BB): $115.50
UTG: $103.15
MP: $59.95
CO: $65.70
BTN: $63.10

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $3</font>, 4 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $11.50</font>, UTG calls $8.50

Flop: ($23.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $14</font>, UTG calls $14

Turn: ($51.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $26</font>, Hero calls $26

River: ($103.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $51.65 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $51.65

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

I think you should bet this turn. Are you trying to induce a bluff by checking?

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

Bet turn, shove river

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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Bet turn, shove river

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Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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Bet turn

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Why?

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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Bet turn

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Why?

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y wouldn't we?? we have the best hand here a lot, i thought u were gonna c/r, but i like bet turn, get it on river with stacks

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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y wouldn't we?? we have the best hand here a lot, i thought u were gonna c/r, but i like bet turn, get it on river with stacks

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Of course we have the best hand a lot here...but that's not the point. What is he peeling flop w/ and then calling 2 more streets that's &lt; AK? Betting turn is just giving him an excuse to fold a lot of his range. And this board is just so dry...so it's not like a free card really hurts either.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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i thought u were gonna c/r,

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That was the plan if he'd made a normal sized bet.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

I think you're allowing him to save his last $50 when he is losing and losing it when he is winning by not c/ring turn and then c/calling river.

I think just open shoving the turn might be the best option. Its only a slight overbet and you might induce a call from a weaker made hand.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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might induce a call from a weaker made hand.

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Like QJ/KQ??? I mean that's about it really (and he folds those to a shove a lot of the time anyways).

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

He's just put in more than half his stack on the turn. Do you think he's going to fold to a c/r?

If you're going to call the river bet anyway, why not just get it in on the turn instead of giving him the card for free?

The only way your line makes any sense is if you are trying to get him to bluff at you.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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The only way your line makes any sense is if you are trying to get him to bluff at you.

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Ummm...duh? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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y wouldn't we?? we have the best hand here a lot, i thought u were gonna c/r, but i like bet turn, get it on river with stacks

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Of course we have the best hand a lot here...but that's not the point. What is he peeling flop w/ and then calling 2 more streets that's &lt; AK? Betting turn is just giving him an excuse to fold a lot of his range. And this board is just so dry...so it's not like a free card really hurts either.

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totally agree here. hands we are way ahead of in villains range include TP hands (KQ/QJs/JTs - we don't know how loose he will call 3-bets here), and pocket pairs 88-JJ. maybe stuff like 87s depending on how loose he is.

we dont' lose much value by checking the turn because we're rarely getting value on the turn/river from most of his range. plus, if he's bad, he'll 'bluff' with his weaker made hands.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

well, he did raise utg, and ur are oop against him, so he could have floated the flop with ak and u guys are chopping, also i think aq here too because he calls flops see what u do on that turn because he could think u for aa/kk if u dont tend 2 3 bet alot. when he hits his a he knows hes not folding and prolly is taking u to value town and the spades really are very far fetched for you to have here. also he could have flop top set of queens because alot of people dont 4bet qq pre. also he could havwe 77

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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well, he did raise utg, and ur are oop against him, so he could have floated the flop with ak and u guys are chopping, also i think aq here too because he calls flops see what u do on that turn because he could think u for aa/kk if u dont tend 2 3 bet alot. when he hits his a he knows hes not folding and prolly is taking u to value town and the spades really are very far fetched for you to have here. also he could have flop top set of queens because alot of people dont 4bet qq pre. also he could havwe 77

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even if this is true, we're not folding this hand ever, and i still think checking the turn is fine.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

true i dont think in the feel of the game i could fold this either

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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Bet turn, shove river

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Betting the turn is retarded, no offense.

NH op, call river, simply because we look weak and we have TPTK in a reraised pot, you'll see AQ/QQ sometimes, but Ax and bluffs often enough.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

I hate a turn bet. Turns your hand face up. After that ace falls your perogative should be trying to maximize the amount you can extract from Ax hands and 88-JJ type hands that feel they need to push you off the Q you might have when the A scare card falls. If he wants to stack off, you're gonna stack off regardless, so give bluff inducement a chance.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

This hand is pretty interesting

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

but if we have the bes thand what worse hand will call? does he call AJ pre and then call flop!? if not will KQ call turn and river!?
if not what will call that doesnt beat us?

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

why not just bet out on the turn a decent amount. you are taking a strange line

as played you have to call the river

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

if he got to the flop w/AJ he's probably not folding. turn check is still better though.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

I bet the turn because I always seem to get called by crazy [censored] is spots like this. If he folds, I make a note that I can bluff him on scare cards.

As played, I don't hate a check, but since we are calling an AI, why not bet it ourselves? There are a lot of hands that will check behind on the river that we beat.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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I hate a turn bet. Turns your hand face up. After that ace falls your perogative should be trying to maximize the amount you can extract from Ax hands and 88-JJ type hands that feel they need to push you off the Q you might have when the A scare card falls. If he wants to stack off, you're gonna stack off regardless, so give bluff inducement a chance.

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ok so when you hit your hand you try to induce bluffs, but when you are behind you bluff at it. just doesn't seem right to me, it just isn't a balanced way to play.

people always say on these forums 'don't double barell bluff in 3bet pots because if they call on the flop they are not folding', so now you hit your hand you don't follow through.

does a flushdraw not hit the turn here as well. i understand where you are coming from but saying that you hate to bet this turn makes no sense to me at all

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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why not just bet out on the turn a decent amount. you are taking a strange line

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Betting the turn is retarded, no offense.

NH op, call river, simply because we look weak and we have TPTK in a reraised pot, you'll see AQ/QQ sometimes, but Ax and bluffs often enough.

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totally agree here. hands we are way ahead of in villains range include TP hands (KQ/QJs/JTs - we don't know how loose he will call 3-bets here), and pocket pairs 88-JJ. maybe stuff like 87s depending on how loose he is.

we dont' lose much value by checking the turn because we're rarely getting value on the turn/river from most of his range. plus, if he's bad, he'll 'bluff' with his weaker made hands.

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Pretty sure this sums up why checking the turn is better than betting it. Basically we are going to get it in there when we are pwned anyway. So we are taking this line to maximize value from worse hands/bluffs that would otherwise fold to our bet.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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I bet the turn because I always seem to get called by crazy [censored] is spots like this. If he folds, I make a note that I can bluff him on scare cards.

As played, I don't hate a check, but since we are calling an AI, why not bet it ourselves? There are a lot of hands that will check behind on the river that we beat.

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bingo.

i know if i had a hand that AK beats i would check behind every time. basically we are banking on villain being a retard.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

i think this is perfect.

think about it, you would 2-barrel the turn here with air b/c it looks like you have AK still...this way people won't put you on it.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

vs. the avg 100NL player this is good. I still might shove over his turn bet since there will be a good chance he feels committed anyway.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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I hate a turn bet. Turns your hand face up. After that ace falls your perogative should be trying to maximize the amount you can extract from Ax hands and 88-JJ type hands that feel they need to push you off the Q you might have when the A scare card falls. If he wants to stack off, you're gonna stack off regardless, so give bluff inducement a chance.

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ok so when you hit your hand you try to induce bluffs, but when you are behind you bluff at it. just doesn't seem right to me, it just isn't a balanced way to play.

people always say on these forums 'don't double barell bluff in 3bet pots because if they call on the flop they are not folding', so now you hit your hand you don't follow through.

does a flushdraw not hit the turn here as well. i understand where you are coming from but saying that you hate to bet this turn makes no sense to me at all

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No, you kind of missed my point. I don't always induce bluffs when I hit and I don't always bluff when I'm behind. You have to consider your opponent's specific range in this hand, what he thinks your range is, and based on what his range is what the best way to extract from him is. You are generalizing a lot which is not a great thing to do.

Also, wtf flush draw could he have? Why are you even mentioning that?

What this guy said:

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Pretty sure this sums up why checking the turn is better than betting it. Basically we are going to get it in there when we are pwned anyway. So we are taking this line to maximize value from worse hands/bluffs that would otherwise fold to our bet.

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Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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No, you kind of missed my point. I don't always induce bluffs when I hit and I don't always bluff when I'm behind. You have to consider your opponent's specific range in this hand, what he thinks your range is, and based on what his range is what the best way to extract from him is. You are generalizing a lot which is not a great thing to do.

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I agree w/ this. I mean balance is great and all against good thinking players...but in this particular spot against this particular villain, I felt checking maximized value against his range.

FWIW A7 &gt; AK. Nh sir.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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Bet turn, shove river

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Betting the turn is retarded, no offense.


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Given the frequency with which I double-barrel Ace turns with my non-Ace hands, this response is retarded, no offense.

The answer to whether or not to Bet/Check this turn almost always "it depends", and you should be able to figure out on what.

Re: AK: 3-bet pot > turn TPTK and he keeps on firing...
 

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Given the frequency with which I double-barrel Ace turns with my non-Ace hands

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Yeah...but villain obviously can't know that.