Absolute Scandal
 

Latest Cliff's Notes

Right now, there is extremely strong evidence that cheating has taken place on absolute poker. The method was to use an account that could view the hole cards of everyone at the table. AP has denied all claims, but there is a preponderance of evidence and the latest word is that one of the accounts belongs to a (current or former) VP of AP.

At any rate, I think the likelihood that there is a major scandal brewing is extremely high. Now the question is how will that story impact legislative efforts and the pro on line poker movement in general?

I think people like the PPA, and every poker site, needs to be thinking about this and developing their spin. Obviously I see this as more reason to regulate on line gaming and allow for US providers. The opposition will tout this as clear evidence that on line gaming is all rigged and corrupt and must be stamped out to protect US citizens.

I haven't seen anything about this in the legislation forum, hence this little post. I think this scandal will have a major impact on on line poker.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

The pols will want regulation which will not prevent these types of incidents.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pols will want regulation which will not prevent these types of incidents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think any US regulatory control will provide for a mechanism at least to get restitution if an incident like this occurs. It appears as if there really is no outside authority over AP. The gaming commission that regulates it owns it was the impression I got. (I think it is a Canadian tribe that owns it, but I am not sure).

It sure looks right now that the corruption goes straight to the top and there is no real action anyone can take other than boycotting the site. One thing that US regulation could require is that the providing site is incorporated in a WTO country.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

I am going to view this as test for the PPA. They need to get out in front of this and be prepared for the inevitable MSM coverage. Fingers crossed.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Regulation could do a lot more, and protect us players in a number of good ways (it could also hurt us in a number of ways, depending on the actual regulatory scheme). Certainly If Absolute were somehow subject to US jurisdiction, complaints, findings, compensation and possible criminal charges would be possible.

Unfortunately, this level of intelligence seems far above that capable of the average American (call me a cynic). The average joe who doesnt already play will let a sensational story like this confirm his worst fears that the poker sites are all rigged cheaters just like old time riverboat gamblers. They should all be shot goddammit.

For most people no amount of reasoned argument will convince them that it is, in fact, the absence of legal US framework that lets a dirty site get away with cheating. The fun emotional appeal of identifying a "scumbag" and stringing them up (even though its only figuratively) is too compelling for most humans, at least Americans (Europeans seem slightly better at avoiding this, though far from immune). So it must be best to make these "predators" go away by "banning" them.

In other words, while the Absolute scandal is in reality evidence to support our cause, the tabloids and FOFers will spin it against us, probably quite effectively.

Skallagrim

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think people like the PPA, and every poker site, needs to be thinking about this and developing their spin. Obviously I see this as more reason to regulate on line gaming and allow for US providers. The opposition will tout this as clear evidence that on line gaming is all rigged and corrupt and must be stamped out to protect US citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, and if we're talking spin (vis-a-vis why it should be regulated and not outlawed), we need to emphasize that poker is an American game with a rich and deep history of folklore intertwined with the country itself. Outlawing Americans from playing the most American game on Earth seems, well, kind of un-American. If the government wants to protect its citizens, it needs to ensure that they can play poker like they want to, from the comfort of their own home, secure that they won't be cheated.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Nath, you are a freakin' genius.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Nath makes a great point. Everyones talking about how this will hurt online poker. IMO this should hurt AP and anyone associated with them, keep the other sites out of it and let us innocent folks keep on playing

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Ooops, wrong thread, please delete.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Well, I don't read Card Player, but I doubt they have the courage to pull its AP advertizing and run a story on the cheating. And Card Player is most of the board at the PPA. So you tell me what you think they are going to do?

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think people like the PPA, and every poker site, needs to be thinking about this and developing their spin. Obviously I see this as more reason to regulate on line gaming and allow for US providers. The opposition will tout this as clear evidence that on line gaming is all rigged and corrupt and must be stamped out to protect US citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, and if we're talking spin (vis-a-vis why it should be regulated and not outlawed), we need to emphasize that poker is an American game with a rich and deep history of folklore intertwined with the country itself. Outlawing Americans from playing the most American game on Earth seems, well, kind of un-American. If the government wants to protect its citizens, it needs to ensure that they can play poker like they want to, from the comfort of their own home, secure that they won't be cheated.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! And taking it 1 step further, with the governments current line of logic, anyone who is un-American is a terrorist. Thus, anyone against an American game like poker is a terrorist! LOL!!

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pols will want regulation which will not prevent these types of incidents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it could do more than you are thinking. For those following the story, a detailed history of AP user 363 and other "superusers" is critical in determining exactly what fraud took place. For example, we do not know if 363 followed POTRIPPER to his other tables in the 1K tourney. This would be incredibly damning evidence. We do not know if superuser accounts were observing cash game tables where players were apparently cheated. Regulation could provide requirements for the archival of this type of data and more. This data could then be used for restitution, prosecution, etc. Moreover, the knowledge of such an independent archival of this type of data would likely have prevented such a fraud from occurring in the first place.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
Latest Cliff's Notes

Right now, there is extremely strong evidence that cheating has taken place on absolute poker. The method was to use an account that could view the hole cards of everyone at the table. AP has denied all claims, but there is a preponderance of evidence and the latest word is that one of the accounts belongs to a (current or former) VP of AP.

At any rate, I think the likelihood that there is a major scandal brewing is extremely high. Now the question is how will that story impact legislative efforts and the pro on line poker movement in general?

I think people like the PPA, and every poker site, needs to be thinking about this and developing their spin. Obviously I see this as more reason to regulate on line gaming and allow for US providers. The opposition will tout this as clear evidence that on line gaming is all rigged and corrupt and must be stamped out to protect US citizens.

I haven't seen anything about this in the legislation forum, hence this little post. I think this scandal will have a major impact on on line poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Why is that thread not in Internet Gambling? For some reason, it's buried in "Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance" - what does that have to do with a cheating online site?

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Latest Cliff's Notes

Right now, there is extremely strong evidence that cheating has taken place on absolute poker. The method was to use an account that could view the hole cards of everyone at the table. AP has denied all claims, but there is a preponderance of evidence and the latest word is that one of the accounts belongs to a (current or former) VP of AP.

At any rate, I think the likelihood that there is a major scandal brewing is extremely high. Now the question is how will that story impact legislative efforts and the pro on line poker movement in general?

I think people like the PPA, and every poker site, needs to be thinking about this and developing their spin. Obviously I see this as more reason to regulate on line gaming and allow for US providers. The opposition will tout this as clear evidence that on line gaming is all rigged and corrupt and must be stamped out to protect US citizens.

I haven't seen anything about this in the legislation forum, hence this little post. I think this scandal will have a major impact on on line poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Why is that thread not in Internet Gambling? For some reason, it's buried in "Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance" - what does that have to do with a cheating online site?

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC the decision was made to leave the AP threads in BBV because of the increased traffic from "outside" sources and linking to the original threads that also originated in BBV...The BBV threads have had all the "ground breaking" news and investigations as of late..

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Cheese,

It's pretty clearly a massive beat.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

I think the "spin" here is pretty obvious.

After UIGEA was passed, Americans who wanted to play were left with no choice but to go to second rate sites and payment methods. Those second rate sites include Absolute Poker, who did not have the security methods in place to prevent these type things from happening. Thus, Americans were ripped off, just like duing Prohibition when drinkers got sick or died from bad booze, or were ripped off from shady characters and organized crime.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The pols will want regulation which will not prevent these types of incidents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it could do more than you are thinking. For those following the story, a detailed history of AP user 363 and other "superusers" is critical in determining exactly what fraud took place. For example, we do not know if 363 followed POTRIPPER to his other tables in the 1K tourney. This would be incredibly damning evidence. We do not know if superuser accounts were observing cash game tables where players were apparently cheated. Regulation could provide requirements for the archival of this type of data and more. This data could then be used for restitution, prosecution, etc. Moreover, the knowledge of such an independent archival of this type of data would likely have prevented such a fraud from occurring in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

AP agrees to 3 party audit

US on-line poker will mean US laws to "protect" the game in the US and since the US is such a large part of the world market like most of the rest of the on-line world.

When there is a dispute or scandal like this it will not be the site operators who decide what needs to be done it will be some future on-line gaming commission or court under regulations written to "stop" these past bad acts in a future regulatory scheme.

Current operators will be judged and to some degree determine how burdensome that regulation will be based on how they handle these issues now.

The weaker their responses are now the less likely and less credible their claims of self regualtion will be taken in the future when those regulations are written.

In effect their actions now are determining how big a rake we all will pay later.


D$D

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The pols will want regulation which will not prevent these types of incidents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it could do more than you are thinking. For those following the story, a detailed history of AP user 363 and other "superusers" is critical in determining exactly what fraud took place. For example, we do not know if 363 followed POTRIPPER to his other tables in the 1K tourney. This would be incredibly damning evidence. We do not know if superuser accounts were observing cash game tables where players were apparently cheated. Regulation could provide requirements for the archival of this type of data and more. This data could then be used for restitution, prosecution, etc. Moreover, the knowledge of such an independent archival of this type of data would likely have prevented such a fraud from occurring in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

AP agrees to 3 party audit
D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

The "3rd party" is already an auditor of AP. One poster said it is like having your own lawyer investigate you. In addition, AP has had time, if so inclined, to purge some incriminating evidence. In a regulatory scheme where mucho data is automatically and independently acquired and archived, safeguards are much more effective. I would even argue for a common "poker engine" that all sites share. This engine would track everything necessary to ensure game integrity.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Here is what is mind blowing to me: There has finally been conrete evidence of flat out cheating by a major poker site (or its employees it doesn't matter its still cheating the poker players), and you guys are still in complete denial acting like this is the lone isolated incident.

Chances are good that this is not the only incident and AP is not the only site involved in things like this. Am I saying that the other major sites are cheating? No. But you have to consider how much money is at stake here. There is nobody making sure its not happening folks. There are no regulations keeping the guys playing against you from seeing your hole cards. There are no regulations keeping bots from playing. There are no regulations to keep the flops fair.

I'm just sayin' though. Do yall not understand that money talks? Have you not learned this life lesson yet?

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the "spin" here is pretty obvious.

After UIGEA was passed, Americans who wanted to play were left with no choice but to go to second rate sites and payment methods. Those second rate sites include Absolute Poker, who did not have the security methods in place to prevent these type things from happening. Thus, Americans were ripped off, just like duing Prohibition when drinkers got sick or died from bad booze, or were ripped off from shady characters and organized crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this. It would be ESPECIALLY helpful for those commenting on this situation to note this happened after UIGEA passed. It didn't stop Americans from wanting to gamble, it just made it more dangerous. Another failed attempt at prohibition. Hopefully we can learn from this incident and move towards U.S. regulation.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

All good comments about how to spin things our way. I especially like the post UIGEA take.

But I am still pessimistic about how this will get reported to the general public through the MSM.

TE, you're our contact to the PPA, perhaps they should get out in front on this one: "UIGEA leads to Americans getting cheated at poker site."

Skallagrim

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
TE, you're our contact to the PPA, perhaps they should get out in front on this one: "UIGEA leads to Americans getting cheated at poker site."

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Great, now everyone will run to the government to save them from one isolated instance of cheating. The government cannot prevent fraud, dishonesty or cheating anymore than it can bring off prohibition.
Let AP suffer the consequences in the free market. I already left them because of the evidence and their response. What is really needed is a more free market by some final confirmation, new law or court case, that online poker is legal in US.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great, now everyone will run to the government to save them from one isolated instance of cheating. The government cannot prevent fraud, dishonesty or cheating anymore than it can bring off prohibition.
Let AP suffer the consequences in the free market. I already left them because of the evidence and their response. What is really needed is a more free market by some final confirmation, new law or court case, that online poker is legal in US.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think PPA could use the tone that UIGEA caused this by reducing competition, thereby stifling the self-correcting free market.

Re: Absolute Scandal : An operator perspective
 

This is a bad scandal. There was no reason for that sort of reported functionality to even exist on AP live games, let alone allow it to be exploited.

While I clearly would have business reasons to prefer not getting tarred with this brush, my argument AGAINST the proposed "spin" is based on a political reality not personal interest alone.

US poker players who want to play online need to face the backlash from this scandal, not join in a lynch mob.

A "spin" which emphasizes how "bad" things are offshore will bite you in the ass if you want to play over the next couple of years online.

The "cheating issue" is real and bad in this light. However, it should be "spun" as something a rogue programmer did, not a US v foreign spin. Otherwise, you WILL be playing into a theme which would seek to shut down ALL online poker for the US, and NOT only pending study.

The PPA should spin damage control, but not fan the flames for an outright ban. If you want to make it MORE difficult for US players to play online for 3 - 5 years, then "spin" this story as negatively as possible, along US v. foreign lines.

We run an honest business. We run it from offshore for our US players because we must. We would seek to obtain a "licensed" US imprimateur in a heartbeat if it were available, but it is not.

We are not going to become politically active in this fight precisely because it should be up to the US PLAYERS, what they want available to them.

We are going to continue with US players because we think the market should be served, not prohibited. We will provide poker services to those US players in legal markets who want to play at TruePoker.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

This has nothing to do with the UIGEA.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
This has nothing to do with the UIGEA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd suggest that the reduction in competition resulting from UIGEA has restricted the ability of the free market to clear bad apples from the marketplace.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

I would agree with TruePokerCEO except for one thing: what he fears would be done with us making our spin is precisely why our enemies will spin it the way I anticipated in my first post ("Online poker bad, shut it down")

But his words of caution are very well placed. Any PPA response has to anticipate the negative spin and negative use of this story. My toss off "UIGEA leads to Americans being cheated..." was never meant to be the actual message.

How about "Unintended consequences of UIGEA: lack of clear US legal status lets rogue employee cheat Americans at poker site and probably get away with it"? Note I also used the words "clear US legal status" not "regulation."

Skallagrim

Edited again because of what whangarei says below. Employee is technically correct even if he was a part owner.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Just for clarity, it appears it is not a "rogue programmer" but rather the CEO/founder who was cheating.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

There are scandals and cheating in every aspect of business. Without the threat of imminent prosecution and appropriate regulation, they are harder to detect and prevent.

Enron
Arthur Andersen
Nicolas Leeson
LTCM

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

UIGEA caused a "lack of clear US legal status"? I remember several companies that left after seeing their legal status more clearly. If those companies had stayed around, do you think we would forever be free of cheating online?

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

As others have pointed out, no one is ever assured completely of being free from fraud or cheating.

The UIGEA scared the most responsible sites out of the market, the publicly traded ones. While I have lots of confidence about Stars and FTP and a few others (TruePoker for sure [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), the "outlaw" image of these sites does create an atmosphere where criminals will find it easier to do their crimes, and - far more importantly to the criminal - get away with it once exposed. Its far easier for your coke dealer to rip you off and get away with it than it is for your pharmacist.

And the limited market does restrict players ability to vote with their dollars by going elsewhere.

Skallagrim

Nonsense on several points:
 

"the most responsible sites out of the market, the publicly traded ones"

This is complete and utter nonsense to equate 'publicly traded" with "responsible" in the context of fraud by an employee/insider. Are you saying that the publicly traded BetOnSports was more responsible and trustworthy than PokerStars ? Did PartyPoker become "more responsible" the day they floated a stock offering ?

"the "outlaw" image of these sites does create an atmosphere where criminals will find it easier to do their crimes, and - far more importantly to the criminal - get away with it once exposed."

This is an astoundingly silly thing to say, Skall. An honest site, whether or not in the US, can make any parties injured by inside criminals whole. Absolute can, and should track down all possible misuse of this "Superuser function" and pay off injured parties.

"Do you think you could steal from Me and Meyer Lansky ?"

----- movie quote from Bugsy Siegal

What recompense or justice a defrauded site could extract from a truly guilty inside perpetrator would likely be more severe outside the US than inside the US legal system.

The "criminal" stands less chance of getting away with it outside the US than relying on some unsympathetic prosecutor in the US.

A number of years ago, Binions' security beat the crap out of a coin thief. This practice was likely not new. However, it was caught on tape and caused Binions a lot of trouble. Which deterrent would you think would be more effective, an on=the-spot beating or the possibility that a DA might prosecute you down the road.


(I was clearly wrong about nothing jucy happening for a few months. This thread is too good to pass up.)

Re: Nonsense on several points:
 

True Poker CEO,

I think the way to spin it is that if regulation were in place, and companies could be licensed to serve US customers, then if something like this happened the affected players would have recourse. The real problem in this situation is not that the scandal has happened, every industry has scandals, but that there are no mechanisms to reduce the risks or adjudicate the situation after the fact. Here, the gaming commission that oversees AP appears to have some serious conflicts of interest, and there AP itself does not fall under the auspices of a recognized nation, but rather under those of a tribal nation, which seems like a pretty complicated situation.

The story is already out there. It may or may not get more main stream, but it certainly seems that everyones fears (in regards to AP) are true. The opponents of on line poker have a no brainer with their spin. I think we need to be out in front of this convincing people that this sort of thing is more common when you take a prohibition posture.

I just looked up and see that grasshopp3r wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
There are scandals and cheating in every aspect of business. Without the threat of imminent prosecution and appropriate regulation, they are harder to detect and prevent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could not agree with this more. This is really the point I was trying to make. With regulation and licensing, one can be assured that the company they are dealing with is 'touchable'.

Re: Nonsense on several points:
 

I agree with Milton on this one. The 4 cases cited by grasshopp3r involve large and/or publically traded, in US no less, companies. These cases and others convince me that if some company wants to cheat, then it will ignore any laws or regulations. The other problem is that even the US legal system is bad at compensation of victims. How many victims of these scandals have received compensation.
Thinking they are protected, people tend to over rely on laws and regulations, rather than caution. Thus, they tend to invest too heavily in companies that employ them and the so-called hot investments.
If online poker is regulated, then people may keep too much money in 1 site or ewallet and get wiped out by a cheating company. I never keep more than about 25-30% of my bankroll in any one site or ewallet. If I had more choices and it was easier to move money from my bank to ewallets to poker sites, then I would lower these percentages. This caution is better than any regulation.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

This article http://www.gambling911.com/Cheating-...er-101807.html just appeared on G911. They better have a good law firm is the article is wrong. The fact that they cite a foreign source probably won't help in US court.
I hope it is wrong. I would rather see a rogue employee or programmer be found to be responsible than an owner.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather see a rogue employee or programmer be found to be responsible than an owner.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the company's duty to insure the integrity of their operations. That is part of the risk they assume when doing business. Companies can go after the rogue employee for damages, but if I deal with a company, my agreements and dealings are with the legal entity that is the company, not individual employees (though employees acting as agents can certainly enter the company into contracts and agreements). If I get screwed because of one of their employees, it is still the companies responsibility to make it right by me. Anything beyond that is not my concern as a customer.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

Look Milton and JP, I am not trying to prove the accuracy of my statements in the post above (you guys should know me better than that by now [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). I am only trying to find a way for us to spin this story so it is not used against us, or at least we have a counter better than "there is crime everywhere" when it is used against us.

That said, it is pretty clear that my statement "it is easier for your coke dealer to rip you off and get away with it than your pharmacist" is true. I am not talking about coke dealer to coke dealer rip-offs (where your Meyer Lansky quote applies) but coke dealer to customer rip-offs (where anyone who has ever gotten baking soda instead of coke knows I am right).

The point to be made somewhere is that this guy can avoid legal consequences (is Costa Rica really gonna get him? - is Absolute gonna have someone beat him up) as things stand. If there were no question about poker legality, then if Absolute didnt do anything, and if Costa Rica didnt do anything, US players could still do something - they could sue themselves, or pressure the DOJ to extradite and prosecute (fraud is an extraditable offense even if running a poker site isnt).

Again, the point here is spin, not sticking up for party's credibility (which was indeed always less than stars IMO) or attacking other sites credibility or debating the virtue of being private or publicly traded.

If we cant come up with some spin better than "every business has criminals" poker will suffer and the only thing we can really hope is that this story doesnt break through to the MSM.

Skallagrim

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great, now everyone will run to the government to save them from one isolated instance of cheating. The government cannot prevent fraud, dishonesty or cheating anymore than it can bring off prohibition.
Let AP suffer the consequences in the free market. I already left them because of the evidence and their response. What is really needed is a more free market by some final confirmation, new law or court case, that online poker is legal in US.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that what our government is for? I am also a believer in the free market but I don't think that because you have a free market problems like this will automatically take care of themselves. I actually hope that once we have legal regulated online gambling in this country that the government plays a role in keeping everything on the up and up.

Re: Absolute Scandal
 

For the most part, government has only attempted to prevent fraud and other cheating since the New Deal. While not a primary cause fraud, land swindling, cattle watering and stock market manipulation played a major role in the Great Depression.
I am not as certain as most that the prevention attempts by government have been effective. I do think that the government has been effective in spreading and sharing the cost of such illegality. So in that respect, IMO the intervention by government that began in the New Deal has helped in preventing another Great Depression.