A hand
 

Live game. Villan is loosish and more aggressive than most but plays reasonably well overall. We've played together enough to be familiar with each other, he likely thinks I'm somewhat tight/predictable - at least relative to himself.

I open raise in MP with ThTc. He 3-bets out of the BB. I 4-bet (pretty standard against his range here if that gives you an idea), he calls.

Flop is Ah 9h 3c. He checks, I bet, he calls.

Turn is 8s. He pauses, ponders and bets. I raise, he calls.

River is 6c. He pauses again, bets again. I call.

Thoughts?

Re: A hand
 

If your read is he would checkraise the flop or turn with an ace then I think I kind of get you.

Would he five bet pocket nines? He probably wouldn't with 33 I assume.

I guess I don't get the line (other than the force a flush draw to pay) because I'm not sure about the turn raise-isn't it trying to get to showdown/price out a flush draw + get some value against a middle pair?

Hell I don't know, if I'm against a player who wants to get tricky on all the streets I just call turn and river.

Re: A hand
 

My first thought is that way too many bets went into an A high board w/ TT

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
My first thought is that way too many bets went into an A high board w/ TT

[/ QUOTE ]

So play the hand.

Re: A hand
 

Seeing as how he thinks you're tight/predictable, I really don't think you win this hand. Once he calls your turn raise i really think he has the A and you are screwed.

SGS

Re: A hand
 

i think you lost. or you beat 77. but i don't like it.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
but i don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same thing Poker101 said. I don't necessarily like it either, or I wouldn't have posted it. Feel free to actually suggest alternative lines.

Re: A hand
 

I fold the river. I assume villian has a mid Ace.

On the flop, he doesn't checkraise, since he views you as tight and that you will fold the turn with a medium pocket pair.

He also doesn't want to checkraise the turn because you will fold for the same reasons, and might even check behind. So he donk bets the turn, hoping you will call down. When you raise, he puts you on either KK or QQ or AK. If you have QQ or KK, you are raising for a free showdown of course, but he is not going to threebet still fearing AK, also if he does three bet, you will fold a worse hand.

On the river its obviously he is bet/folding, as he assumes you will make a crying call, and even possibly just call with AK.

Re: A hand
 

I think he has a hand such as QhJh or something often enough that you need to call the river, given that he probably views you as tight enough to fold some non ace pairs. His line just doesn't _feel_ like the way he should plausibly play an ace.

I assume you were going to check behind on the river?

I'm pretty sure I raise the turn too because I generally take the "pauses, ponders, bets" thing live as meaning he doesn't like his hand that much, but doesn't know what to do with it.

I like the post, glad to see you outside of Sports/OOT/NVG again.

Re: A hand
 

This guy missed his flush draw, and you played it perfectly.

Re: A hand
 

I would normally just call the turn here and usually call the river unless I picked up a strong reason to believe my hand is no good somewhere between my turn call and his river bet.

Were u going to value bet this river? Thats the main reason I could see why raising the turn would be better.

Re: A hand
 

I think that if the guy is erratic/tricky/wierd enough to donk the river after the previous action with something worse then a mid-weak ace, then I think it is best to just call down rather than rasie the turn.

I make sure that I note the guys that like to donk most every street whenther they have a hand or not. Then I can be sure not to use a free s.d. play on them.

I can't be sure given the description whether or not you have a good river call here. IMO, a player that is just aggresive does not bet this river with a hand you beat. It needs to be one of those erratic players that make many 'out of tempo' bets.

Persoanlly, I would only take his line with an ace I was unsure of.

Re: A hand
 

given your description and the action you definently gotta cal this river.

A lot of players like to check-call and donk the turn with an ace when they aren't closing the action preflop and out of position.

Given your description of the villain I can see him playing an ace this way but I can also see him playing a JQh,QK, or even TJh the same way.

Call the turn and re-evaluate on the river but most likely I'm showdown-bound in this spot and cheaply as possible.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the river. I assume villian has a mid Ace.

On the flop, he doesn't checkraise, since he views you as tight and that you will fold the turn with a medium pocket pair.

He also doesn't want to checkraise the turn because you will fold for the same reasons, and might even check behind. So he donk bets the turn, hoping you will call down. When you raise, he puts you on either KK or QQ or AK. If you have QQ or KK, you are raising for a free showdown of course, but he is not going to threebet still fearing AK, also if he does three bet, you will fold a worse hand.

On the river its obviously he is bet/folding, as he assumes you will make a crying call, and even possibly just call with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are we folding if our opponent is obviously bet/folding....

Very contradictory...
True

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he has a hand such as QhJh or something often enough that you need to call the river, given that he probably views you as tight enough to fold some non ace pairs. His line just doesn't _feel_ like the way he should plausibly play an ace.

I assume you were going to check behind on the river?

I'm pretty sure I raise the turn too because I generally take the "pauses, ponders, bets" thing live as meaning he doesn't like his hand that much, but doesn't know what to do with it.

I like the post, glad to see you outside of Sports/OOT/NVG again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this analysis a lot.
-James

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the river its obviously he is bet/folding, as he assumes you will make a crying call, and even possibly just call with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true then why are we folding instead of raising?

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I raise the turn too because I generally take the "pauses, ponders, bets" thing live as meaning he doesn't like his hand that much, but doesn't know what to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anything about live play. In an online game, I'd calldown after the turn bet.

Re: A hand
 

I was going to respond to this, but Clarkmeister has me on ignore.

Re: A hand
 

HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Capping preflop is totally mandatory if his 3 betting range includes hands you dominate, and he will continue to play in a bizarre way(see this hand) postflop.
-James

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
he likely thinks I'm somewhat tight/predictable

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I remember the post where Zee asked you what stage you were in when you got crazy with 55 or something. Seems like something's changed.

Anyway, looks like if you've played together enough, he should have TP beat. Unless he's betting because it's the only way he wins. Which you think is the case.

Alternative lines are either just passively calling down or folding to the river donk after raising the turn. I prefer the raise. Either I think is better than paying off that river.

Re: A hand
 

i dont really see the point in raising the turn. he's not likely to fold anything on the turn, and although making him pay to draw is good youre just beat by so many hands. the pause means weakness sometimes, but sometimes it also means theyre going to show you a weak A or QQ or something terribly irritating.

use your position to save bets and decide right there on the turn youre putting in exactly two more bets (if you dont spike), none more, none less.

Re: A hand
 

"Capping preflop"

no cap headsup live

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Capping preflop is totally mandatory if his 3 betting range includes hands you dominate, and he will continue to play in a bizarre way(see this hand) postflop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]
I have to say I strongly disagree with this statement. I'm not saying capping is a bad play, but I definitely do not think its mandatory. Just becuz the hero's hand is likely to be ahead of the villain's 3betting range does not necessarily mean that capping is the best play. Against certain opponents it may be best to pass up our edge preflop, depending on how our opponent will react postflop to the hero's cap versus the how the villain will react postflop if the hero just calls the 3bet.

Holdem is too complicated of a game to ever say that capping is absolutely madatory. It can very easily be the case that the hero stands to make more money in the long run by just calling the 3 bet and letting the villain stay in control of this hand than if the hero capped and retook control of the hand. As you know, limit holdem is a muti-steet game, how the hero plays one street will have a direct impact on how the later streets play out. Becuz of this reality, the hero actually has a lot of flexibilty preflop after the villain 3 bets. Whether the hero should cap or not, I am not certain, but I am certain of this much. There are no absolutes here, and against many opponents with the same range as this villains 3bet, capping would not be the right play here.

Edit: Just realized from Mike1's post that this is HU live so there is no cap, just replace the word cap with fourbet.

Re: A hand
 

seems fine. i am assuming you were dumping to a turn 3bet?

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Capping preflop"

no cap headsup live

[/ QUOTE ]
in vegas there is, but its five bets.

Re: A hand
 

he obviously bet the turn to avoid giving a free card, which means he has a made hand. if you raise the turn he might confuse him. are you semi-bluffing, do you have an ace??, i dont know. in any event he will now not bet the river which you were hoping he would do.

Re: A hand
 

Just a random observation from live play:

I've noticed a fair amount of calling the turn raise and donking the river from a certain type of player against a certain type as a kind of value bluff. Specifically against rocking players from LAGish players who play/read hands well but give up way too much with their looseness and aggression.

Anyway, this really looks like a perfect kind of spot for this to happen (although it'd be a little better if the river was a bit scarier). Against the kind of player you're describing I'd frequently play this hand the exact same way. It really seems like the best way to just let them outplay themselves.

Re: A hand
 

I used to be a firm believer in the concept of stopping bluffs, which is what you did with your turn raise. However, there are plenty of donks at all limits these days who will fire again on a busted draw after your great show of strength on the turn. Against this type of player, I would call down on the river, although it's close. Against any other type of player, this is a clear fold.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Capping preflop"

no cap headsup live

[/ QUOTE ]
in vegas there is, but its five bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike is right. In most rooms, including this one, once it's headsup there's no cap. So we could've gone 12 bets preflop had we both chosen to do so.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
His line just doesn't _feel_ like the way he should plausibly play an ace.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking at the table. His hand "should" be an ace the way he played it, but it just didn't feel like how he'd play an ace against me. Hence, my call. But at the same time, it sure didn't feel like he could reasonably expect me to fold *anything* to his river bet in that pot, which made me feel retarded for calling.

As for the turn, I think your observation is a good one. Another reason I raised is that I don't like to "encourage them to think I play weakly" as someone suggested in another thread. There are times for that, yes, but given that I 3-bet him quite a bit preflop and that ace high boards are so easy for people to take shots at, I just felt that this was a bad spot to do anything other than try and punish him in case he was taking a shot. So I'm going with the sometimes lame metagame excuse as another reason I popped the turn.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]


Were u going to value bet this river? Thats the main reason I could see why raising the turn would be better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't going to bet the river, but now that you mention it, I think that may be a mistake. Good idea.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
he obviously bet the turn to avoid giving a free card, which means he has a made hand

[/ QUOTE ]

But with that board and that preflop action, I don't see how any made hand is really worried about free cards.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he likely thinks I'm somewhat tight/predictable

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I remember the post where Zee asked you what stage you were in when you got crazy with 55 or something. Seems like something's changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I said tight/predictable *relative to himself*. There were people at that table who think I'm a LAGtard too.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless he's betting because it's the only way he wins. Which you think is the case.


[/ QUOTE ]

I called because his hand didn't feel how he'd play an ace, but it looked for all the world like an ace. So what I'm saying is I wasn't thinking anything other than I just had to see his hand because while I felt I was beat, I needed the information because my instinct didn't jive with my read. Which may be a pretty bad reason to call, or a good one, I'm not sure.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's giving up WAY too much against a player who will consistently give excessive action. Also, a wierd dynamic sometimes is that the more bets you put in preflop, the more action they are willing to give. In other words, if I just call and then come to life on an 8-high board, it's an action killer. If I 4-bet and it comes 8-high, I'm still likely to get tons of action before he really believes I've got an overpair or can't push me off AK or whatever.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think you lost. or you beat 77. but i don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

To really get typical LV locals at the table excited, he shows you JJ, you nod, say good and muck.

[ QUOTE ]
he likely thinks I'm somewhat tight/predictable - at least relative to himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does he think that he can outplay you and will pick a hand or 2 each session to try to do it?

I'm fine with raising his turn, "Do you really have an A?" bet as many times that's just what it is.

Now he still bets the river. From his prospective, you've played it like AK or perhaps like a big pair looking for a free showdown.

After the turn action he must assume that you are going to call the bet on the river, so isn't he more likely to be value betting? Maybe he has a weak A, maybe his T7 or A6 just got there. You're pretty good at spotting and slipping out of c/r attempts (I know, I've whiffed on a few) so his betting the river when he gets there isn't that surprising. I guess you're beat, but am I 90% sure he's not making one last bluff attempt with busted hearts or maybe a smaller pair. I guess not, so I would feel dirty and call.

Re: A hand
 

Most of the reasons to raise the turn against a weak player, I think, are greatly diminished against a someone who plays well, tough, and big. You’re not really going to gain control over him for the future. He’s not going to fold a better hand, like many of the weaker Vegas players might.

Rather than trying to cultivate an image against a strong player, personally, I think it’s better to just use whatever image you happen to have against them, when you can. You might say that this is what you were doing with your turn raise, but from the way he played the hand, I think he may actually think that you’re “more aggressive than most but play reasonably well overall.”

As far as metagame, I think folding or raising the river is the stronger play.

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as metagame, I think folding or raising the river is the stronger play

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting idea.

Regarding another interesting idea, would you bet the river if checked to?

Re: A hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's giving up WAY too much against a player who will consistently give excessive action. Also, a wierd dynamic sometimes is that the more bets you put in preflop, the more action they are willing to give. In other words, if I just call and then come to life on an 8-high board, it's an action killer. If I 4-bet and it comes 8-high, I'm still likely to get tons of action before he really believes I've got an overpair or can't push me off AK or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, it sounds like capping preflop against this villain is the best play.

Re: A hand
 

Boy, I just can't see your hand being good here. So I like a raise or a fold on the river, not for the metagame as Gabe posted, but for this particular hand. I agree with the consensus that there's something strange about him playing this way if he has an ace, donking both the turn and river. But those pauses before betting feel, reading it here, like a pocket pair thinking you too have a pocket pair and that he thinks his might be better. A raise on the river, after the turn raise, should get him to release pocket queens or jacks, no? Maybe even a better hand than that, if he truly thinks you're tight/predictable.