Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

Villain here is solid reg. 17/13/3 thru 1K hands. He has 3bet me a couple of times already. I would prob. fold if it was the first time. Does anyone still fold? As played?

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HAND #1
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Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $235.05
Hero (BTN): $247.70
SB: $343.60
BB: $194

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $28</font>, Hero calls $20

Flop: ($57) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $42</font>,



Villain here is MrTeddyKGB. I've got him at 17/11/3 thru 2K hands. He was 15/9 thru the first 1K. Opened up his game quite a bit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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HAND #2
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Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $376.15
BTN: $383
SB: $45
BB: $200
Hero (UTG): $200.85
MP: $180.85

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, 2 folds, BTN calls $8, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $28</font>,

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

I play him a fair bit and I think his range here in hand 1 is 10/10-A/A, AK-AQ. Maybe the occasional KQ or AJ but he doesn't 3bet me light that i've seen. FWIW in my last 1k hands with him his been 21/14.7/2 so he is a little more opened up than your stats suggest I think. In hand 2 his range is a bit tighter.

I'm not a huge fan of calling the first one against this guy. He's likely to cbet a lot of flops and its hard to think of a flop where your really happy with your hand, except for a set. An A or a K is going to coe 40% of the time and your plan there was to c/f.

When an A or K doesn't come i'd say 50% of his range is a better pair than yours. If you plan to call flop when he bets like 42 and fold to a second barrel on these, even if we assume when he doesn't have a pair he just insta folds flop and never bluffs you out, your winning 36, .5*.6 = 30% of the time and losing 62 20% and losing 20 50%.

thats like -21 EV or so, but maybe your enough better than me postflop to avoid this stuff. when you called what was your plan?

So it seems like except for set value theres not much to gain here.

However, in hand 2, especially given that he saw you call his 3 bet and fold the flop I would definately feel good about calling with QQ. He's more likely to fire missed flops with AK/AQ cause he saw you fold before. When an overcard doesn't come you can be way more conifdent that you have the best hand.

Bascially to me 1 seems like an easy fold against a nit
2 seems like an easy call.

Also I wouldn't say he's solid. Hes pretty aweful postflop imo, but I guess he is solid pre.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

Fold preflop twice. QQ is a close shove but dont call.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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He has 3bet me a couple of times already.

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consider raising less pre, limping and four-betting.

lmfao @ teddyKGB. he used to play like a crazy person and then turned into a nit and moved down. call and go from there. hes a nit and squeezing and utg raiser from the sb, so i assume his range is REALLY narrow.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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Fold preflop twice. QQ is a close shove but dont call.

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Why can't we call with QQ?

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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Fold preflop twice. QQ is a close shove but dont call.

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Shoving QQ is real bad, and why fold 99?

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

hand #1 is fine fold flop now.
call 2

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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hand #1 is fine fold flop now.
call 2

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Given I feel he can be 3betting me light, don't I have to call this flop if I'm going to call pf?

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

would probably shove the flop with the 99 as you are calling for value, not just set mining

2nd hand depends on the button. 4betting is best here imo

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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hand #1 is fine fold flop now.
call 2

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Given I feel he can be 3betting me light, don't I have to call this flop if I'm going to call pf?

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i think you do except you know he'll fire turn no matter what.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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would probably shove the flop with the 99

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I say a call is decent with the 99 if he's been 3-betting you a bunch, he's stats advocate folding though. I definitely think that you can peel the KK5 flop, I really don't get a shove though.
With the QQ both a 4-bet and a call is good, I mix it up depending on opponent, history, flow of hame etc.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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hand #1 is fine fold flop now.
call 2

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Given I feel he can be 3betting me light, don't I have to call this flop if I'm going to call pf?

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That seems like a decent option too. Only problem with it is that if your opponent is any good at hand reading he will put you on 88-QQ, knowing that you would have 4bet AK pf.

but yeah in retrospect i like calling flop better than folding

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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hand #1 is fine fold flop now.
call 2

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Given I feel he can be 3betting me light, don't I have to call this flop if I'm going to call pf?

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i think you do except you know he'll fire turn no matter what.

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I don't think we play the same games.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

1 fold, 2 i usually don't fold. tbh, i think i still get it in on the flop v. nit but i could very well be wrong.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

meh, I actually four bet hand 1 a good percentage when I know I'm getting three bet light. If I don't, I'd probably call.

Is this a fairly standard c-bet size from this guy? I personally don't c-bet that big in rr pots, ever, so that's why I'm asking. If it is, I'd definitely call at least one bet here and reeval on the turn.

Vs Teddy -
Man, what is up with this guy? I had him as a total nit for ever and a day and then he went totally nutso on me the other day and was three betting and squeezing the [censored] out of me. In about a three hour session, I think I four bet him four or five times once I adjusted. He folded nearly every time except when we got it all in pf my KK &gt; his AJ.

I don't see why a shove is bad vs this guy at all if he was playing like this, though I'd probably four bet smaller, mainly because I don't really feel like playing QQ three to a flop in a bloated pot without position.

Lol at folding though.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

how can you fold 1 no mather what (4 handed you know), I think calling flop is fine. And calling and shoving is both fine at 2. And what is your image? Would be nice to know. Also 3betting history as those stats really dont say anything at all. iv seen 26/21 guys 3bet tight, and 14/11 guys 3bet me on the button like crazy.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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meh, I actually four bet hand 1 a good percentage when I know I'm getting three bet light. If I don't, I'd probably call.

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I think this is a horrible play. Why on earth would you turn 99 into a bluff? Sure you might fold out TT-JJ, but you can just as easily do that with 57s. Are you praying he shoves AK back at you so you can call for a coin flip?

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

MrTeddyKGB plays pretty weird and erratic so I don't think I'd ever fold QQ pf let alone on any decent looking flop.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

I folded hand 2, which is think is awful. I also think shoving is awful. I think calling and getting it in on good flops is best.

In hand 1, I called flop and folded to a turn shove. I like the way I played it, but I think shoving flop can be good at times. Might be an actual value bluff. I really don't feel like I get 2barreled often enough to make calling the flop -EV.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

hand 1 is played optimal i think. very rarely is someone going to double barrell you.

hand 2 i think folding is the worst option against him. calling is best, then shoving, then way down the list is folding

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

Hand 1 is super standard to call flop.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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meh, I actually four bet hand 1 a good percentage when I know I'm getting three bet light. If I don't, I'd probably call.

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I think this is a horrible play. Why on earth would you turn 99 into a bluff? Sure you might fold out TT-JJ, but you can just as easily do that with 57s. Are you praying he shoves AK back at you so you can call for a coin flip?

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Yeah, I could just as easily do that with 57s and probably would a fair amount.

I'm not "praying" for anything. I'll evaluate whatever he does in response and hope to make a good decision based off of that. Sometimes I might call, sometimes I'll fold quick.

Also, I'm not turning my hand into a bluff. Shoving this flop would be turning 99 into a bluff. Right now, the information that I have tells me that I'm likely being three bet light, that means, I think 99 is ahead of his range so I'm value betting. Surely you've bet for value and then folded before?

Calling preflop is ok sometimes but often it just nullifies the real value that your hand has, that is to say, 99 doesn't have a ton of value in a rr pot when you're not the one with the initiative after the flop a good third of the time. You're much more likely to make a bigger mistake later in this hand by calling preflop than you can possibly make by four betting now if you think you're being three bet light.

In my experience, in 85% of three bet pots, the winner is decided on the flop which is great when you three bet 89s get called by 99 and the flop comes AXX and you get to be the one to c-bet.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

hand 1 i'd fold...

i call in hand 2 and get it in on most flops imo

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

seems split on call and fold preflop in hand 1, i call for sure and fold flop with his stats

hand 2 i prolly dont 4 bet but call for sure and NEVER FOLD. and look for a decent flop and ship it

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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seems split on call and fold preflop in hand 1, i call for sure and fold flop with his stats

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keep in mind the villain is betting near 100% of his range on the flop in hand 1.

if you're insta folding this flop, then you shouldn't call pre-flop.

thoughts?

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

true, now that you say that it makes sence, i guess after rethinking i prolly have to acll the flop and see what comes on the turn. also i would like alittle history if he 2 barrels 3bets with nothing. vs unknown id be in a sticky spot

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

4-betting 99 can only be for value if you're getting called by worse. The only (marginally) worse hand that I can see getting it in with you is AK and a lot of the time when you get it in you're drawing to 2 outs. 4-bet/fold is just spew most of the time.

I honestly think 4-betting with 99 is a leak unless you're up against a maniac and have been 4 betting all sorts of weak junk so he can call you with a lower pair/AQ/AJ/etc.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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4-betting 99 can only be for value if you're getting called by worse. The only (marginally) worse hand that I can see getting it in with you is AK and a lot of the time when you get it in you're drawing to 2 outs. 4-bet/fold is just spew most of the time.

I honestly think 4-betting with 99 is a leak unless you're up against a maniac and have been 4 betting all sorts of weak junk so he can call you with a lower pair/AQ/AJ/etc.

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ya i would never 4 bet 99 preflop, unless it was a total meglo

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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4-betting 99 can only be for value if you're getting called by worse.

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I disagree. First, where do you draw the line? I don't see a lot of people stacking off for 100bbs with JJ but certainly nobody would argue that four betting QQ from the button would be a bluff. What about JJ? TT? AK?

Also, I think that there is value in your hand that you are preserving preflop but are losing on a large percentage of flops. I think you're underestimating the value of being the three bettor in a three bet pot. I also don't think you're putting any consideration into the enormous ancillary benefits of "taking back your button" by making it difficult for a blind to continuously three bet your opens from the button.

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The only (marginally) worse hand that I can see getting it in with you is AK and a lot of the time when you get it in you're drawing to 2 outs.

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ok, I still think that there are a lot of other ways in which you can benefit from doing this some percentage of the time.

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I honestly think 4-betting with 99 is a leak unless you're up against a maniac and have been 4 betting all sorts of weak junk so he can call you with a lower pair/AQ/AJ/etc.

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I'm certainly not advocating this as a standard line. In situations where you are opening from the button and being three bet from the blinds by someone who is habitually three betting you it is very profitable to have a healthy four betting range imo.


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4-bet/fold is just spew most of the time.

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lots of standard lines for a lot of 'good players' are spew most of the time, this one gets you a nice image and often times gets people to stop three betting you all together without premium hands.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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Fold preflop twice. QQ is a close shove but dont call.

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why cant we call QQ?

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

people actually fold QQ preflop these days?

i think you have to call flop bet on hand one if your willing to call preflop. but it makes your hand pretty transparent.

hand 2 i prefer just calling preflop and getting it in on a safe flop if he is really nitty. if not i dont mind 4 betting either

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

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I disagree. First, where do you draw the line? I don't see a lot of people stacking off for 100bbs with JJ but certainly nobody would argue that four betting QQ from the button would be a bluff. What about JJ? TT? AK?


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Against some players 4-betting qq from the button is a bluff as well. If you are 4-betting for value the important thing is their CALLING range, not their 3-betting range. I would consider 4-betting AK a semi-bluff.

Would you 4-bet 22 here? Against most opponents, it has the same value. It may be that you think 4-betting any two cards is profitable here. In that case go for it. I bluff 4-bet my hands that don't have enough value to call though.

I suppose it depends how willing you are to make a play on the flop. If someone is 3-betting you so wide that they can have any high card and will stack with tpwk, then I suppose 4-betting 99 pre can be valuable, because you'll have no clue how to play the flop.

FWIW, I don't usually 4-bet JJ or TT either, unless I'm pretty sure he's calling/stacking light. Trying to take the lead back by 4-betting is kind of useless because you're committing too much of your stack to the pot to be able to get away.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

Yeah the tweener hands like 88, 99, aq are an interesting spot when we get three bet. Tbh I think if we are getting 3 bet by a huge range, both calling in position and making a smallish four bet are fine. I lean towards a smallish four bet when out of position or if I don't have a good feel on how villain plays postflop. If I know how villain plays postflop and/or have position, I like taking a flop and playing poker. I think calling is optimal, but 4 betting is more unexploitable, and the less we know about the villlain's postflop play, the more we need to be leaning towards an unexploitable line rather than an optimal line.

Re: Preflop, Newbie Questions
 

1st is an easy fold, if you're gonna play it then go all in though (note: i'm talking about on the flop. preflop was played well/standard)

2nd one vs teddy normally just fold, but if you've been raising him at all then 4bet small enough to present the illusion of fold equity (and obv call a shove) - he can get pretty nutso if you aggravate him even in the slightest.