Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Hi there,

I just moved to Vegas for other reasons and I started playing again. Before I would simply keep my playing to trips out here as a tourist and always did okay at this limit.

However, now I'm here I am finding myself constantly losing to stupid draws that always seem to get there. I have been playing for quite a while and I *think* I have a sound game theory pre-flop. I mostly stick to:

AKo
AKs
AA
KK
QQ
AQs
JJ
TT
99
88
AQo

if I'm early or middle, and add maybe AJ, ATs KQ, JTs and Axs if I'm in late, cutoff and button. I'm not afraid to raise and do a fair amount, but I always seem to get called down with some garbage hand like T6o and they river 2p on me.

I have tried playing super tight (didn't work), aggresive (didn't work - lost quicker. I don't understand how someone can call 4 bets pre-flop with K7o but there you go) and I know I should be happy that they do it, but is this just variance or something else?

How do you deal with these very loose, very passive games?

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

My first two questions:

1. What is your sample size?
2. How big is the rake?

I've come to the conclusion (on my own) that 2/4 with a standard rake is almost impossible to beat.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Sample size? Probably 100+ hours at Red Rock and Monte Carlo at 2/4 since July 2007.

Rake is 10% $4 max.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

As a quickie follow-up, I had a long chat with a very nice lady at Monte Carlo who I've played with as a tourist for years and years, and told her basically what's going on and she recommended I move to 2/1 NL rather than limit.

I'm not sure she's right - as a tourist I did okay in these games but now something's changed. It's strange. I'm hoping it's simply variance and a 3-month cold run of cards.

I am not afraid to raise pre-flop. I am always wary of my position relative to others and I am not bad at reading. I check-raise often enough that I think I keep them guessing, but I also lead out with TPTK or NFD. The calling stations simply call, call, call and pick me off a little at a time.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

100 hours is only like 3500 hands, which could obviously just be variance.

Assuming you're crushing the game to the tune of 2 Big bets per hour before rake, all of your profits could be going down the hole in the form of rake and tips (actually, you could be paying up to 3 or 4 Big bets an hour in drop).

In short, I don't know if you're playing well or not, but there's a good chance that you're on a big down swing AND the game is practically unbeatable.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

i agree with the above comments.

in addition, some more points:

1) you are playing too tight preflop. in 2/4 live games (which are typically loose-passive) you should be playing any PP, any suited broadway, and any suited Ace, regardless of position. if you raised preflop (assuming no one has raised yet) anytime you had a suited broadway you woulndt be far off. you should be playing suited connectors down to 76s from MP or later, assuming people have limped in before you. see the loose games starting hand chart in SSHE.

2) because you are playing too tight preflop, you probably do not have a lot of experience getting in marginal situations postflop. thus your postflop play is likely far from optimal. I suggest you post some hands that you feel are troublesome in this forum.

3) keep in mind that most money in poker is made after the flop. many books focus on preflop play because that is the easiest to learn. however, learning preflop strategy is not by itself going to make you a very big winner even in easy games.

welcome to the forums, and good luck.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

I agree that some of it is variance, but the rest I'm not sure of.

The rake is tough at 2/4 but I'm not looking for riches - 1BB an hour is FINE with me but I can't even manage that. In fact, since I got here I've had a single winning session. One.

Maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was, but that's fixable with study and practice. However, I can't seem to figure out what to do with these loose passive games where no matter what you raise with in position, no one respects it. No one respects raises or bets post-flop and for many, this would be a gold mine, but I constantly see something like this (happened yesterday - my memory for past hands is hazy right now but it's the general gizst).

Hero: AKh in cutoff. I raise to 4. Five people call.
Flop AK7 rainbow. Checked to me, I bet. One caller.
Turn 2 unsuited. I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.
River 2. I check, he bets, I raise, he re-raises, I cap, he calls and shows me A2.

Would a check raise on the flop have gotten him out? No way. These people simply will not fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Thanks for the posts by the way. I appreciate it.

What's SSHE?

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]

Hero: AKh in cutoff. I raise to 4. Five people call.
Flop AK7 rainbow. Checked to me, I bet. One caller.
Turn 2 unsuited. I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.
River 2. I check, he bets, I raise, he re-raises, I cap, he calls and shows me A2.

Would a check raise on the flop have gotten him out? No way. These people simply will not fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but you played this hand poorly on the turn and worse on the river.

i dont care if you play perfect poker preflop, if you spew like this postflop then you wont win.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

How did I play that poorly? I got the maximum bets in on the turn with the best hand? The river in retrospect I was wrong to cap this time, but I put him on AQ or AJ because he only called my check raise with the lower two pair.

He was drawing at a two-outer on the river to win and hit it. What exactly did I do wrong?

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

You should bet out on the turn, because your hand is strong enough (on that board) to three bet. If you had bet out, he would have raised you with his new found two pair. You'd have 3 balled him and got in one more bet with your big chalupa.

River is either a check/call or a bet/call. I can't possibly find a raise, and this is because there are no draws available and the villian pretty much HAS to have a 2 when he raises.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
How did I play that poorly? I got the maximum bets in on the turn with the best hand? The river in retrospect I was wrong to cap this time, but I put him on AQ or AJ because he only called my check raise with the lower two pair.

He was drawing at a two-outer on the river to win and hit it. What exactly did I do wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you bet the turn, he raises and you could 3 bet. also, all too often checking the turn results in him checking behind (especially on a flop like this) and you miss value.

you also put in 1 too many river bets, but you saw that.

finally, you should not be upset about beats like this. you dont want him to fold A2 on this flop. you make money in poker when people call with improper odds, not from them folding.

thus, 2 things to take away from this hand:

1) do not make fancy plays in 2/4 (like you did on the turn).

2) do not be upset when people hit longshot draws against you. people chasing these draws are what make the games profitable.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Kit, what action do you prefer on the river?

OP, don't get discouraged by stuff like this, seriously. It's a tough game sometimes. I'd take Kit's advice to heart and open up a bit; perhaps not as much as he says, but close.

SSHE is "Small Stakes Hold Em" by Millar, Sklansky, and....gah...someone else. It is a red book with a big gun on the cover, and you can/should buy it from this site. If you read it, you will crush them.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

You played poorly because you went for checkraise on the turn when you had top two pair after raising preflop. The chance this will get checked around is huge, which makes going for a c/r instead of betting out is terrible. Bet and 3-bet if he raises. Checking absolutely does not get the maximium in when you're ahead, it either gets in zero or two bets. Betting and 3-betting either gets in one or three bets. (not considering for a moment those times you get raised again).

After you c/r the turn, not betting the river is even worse. You lose a ton of value if you consistently check whenever even a minor scare card hits. Checking the river is giving a pass when your opponent is behind a huge portion of the time, which loses money for you slowly but surely. He had the deuce this time, but that doesn't mean checking was the right move, most of the time he will not have the winning hand.

Edit: Don't take this any criticism here as personal, people have pointed out terrible moves I've made that I thought were perfect at the time. The people posting here will make you a better player if you are able to hear what they are saying.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Right I understand that, but this happens all the time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Remember, I put him on AQ/AJ or AX (didn't consider a 2 as an X simply because of his hands I'd seen in the past couple of hours). I thought if I bet out on the turn I'd get called down to the river. With the 2 pairing on the river I hoped he had AQ or AJ and yes, I was wrong.

This was probably a poor hand to show my problem as it's more my mistake than his (although if you claim now that he was correct to play A2o for a raise in early position then I am really REALLY lost because that is contrary to everything I've ever read or learnt about the game). I wish I had a better memory for hands, but I tend not to remember beats - I tilt way too quickly otherwise.

I have tried the bet, bet, bet approach and that simply doesn't work either. I honestly don't know what to try now as your posts have me confused to my ability in general. I thought I was doing the right thing with plays like this.

So, what should I focus on first?

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Read Small Stakes Hold'Em

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
although if you claim now that he was correct to play A2o for a raise in early position

[/ QUOTE ]
i never said that.

i said that its profitable FOR YOU if he does that.

purchase small stakes hold em by Ed Miller. read it several times, digest it, and practice it in your games.

it will pay for itself many times over. I still use concepts in the book over and over again in 10/20 limit games.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Okay put that as a given. I have a B&N right up the street here and I'll pick up a copy later on this afternoon (I'm a sucker for immediate gratification or I'd buy it from here).

When you say "Suited broadway" are you talking about ONLY suited face cards except for the tens, or Ax, Kx, Qx and Jx suited?

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

OP no offense, but maybe you should check out Getting Started in Hold Em and then read SSHE. Either way, for sure read SSHE.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

No what I meant is that you said I played the hand poorly, which implies he played it well. I had a read, it was wrong - simple as that I guess. BUt as I said it was a bad hand to start off with - sorry [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

This is tough it really is. I love the game but the constant loss is starting to eat me up. I know I am capable of much more than this and I do have past results to prove it. I am not a newcommer to the game by any means.

Hmm. Myabe that's exactly my problem. The game has changed but I haven't?

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Also like Kit said, you are going to have to open up your starting hand range more. More pairs. Mpore suited Aces and suited connectors in position.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

I've played LV profitably last 3 years, 2-5 trips per year, LLHE 2/4-4/8.

1) Another vote for SSHE. Early on, I made a business card size "cheat sheet" to remind me of PF do's and don'ts. It's auto pilot now.

2) For LLHE, IMO, you are in the wrong casinos. MGM, Bally's, and Excal offer much softer settings. Your locations tends to have far more locals. Search out the drunk passive tourist meat.

3) SSHE will let you play more hands PF, properly, and get you more action. Importantly, it will show you when to be aggressive in both pre and post flop. That is where the $ is.

4) Yes, variance is *itch, but in the long run, raising premium hands PF, hitting TPTK, and pounding away from there is very profitable in these games. ABC poker, NOTHING special.

5) Keep an Excel spreadsheet of your results, separated by game and casino.

Give these 90 days and let us know how you are doing.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Okay will do. I'm off to go buy the book.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
No what I meant is that you said I played the hand poorly, which implies he played it well.

[/ QUOTE ]

You played the turn and river poorly, that is not to say your opponent played well. They are acts exclusive of each other. FWIW your opponent played badly too.

In small stakes games in 99.9% of situtaions betting/raising is always correct, slowplaying is very rarely an option. As demonstrated in your hand example, people play very poorly.
Trying to decieve these opponents is akin to Lance Burton doing close up magic for Stevie Wonder, it is lost on somebody who cant see it.

As many other have said, buy SSHE, I know you said you was going to, but just in case you forgot, it really is fundamental to gaining an edge in these games.

Also as soon as you are comfortable doing so, both mentally and financially, move up to 3/6 where the rake and tips will have a smaller effect on your bottom line.

Also take not that variance is a b*tch and live it can take forever to actch up. I am a winning player online in full ring and short ring games, but my last trip to Vegas I got absolutely brutalised. A little was not adjusting to the games in front of me but variance played a wicked part too.

Good luck at the tables !!

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Yes you can beat a loose passive 2/4 game, the rake is brutal but generally if you play a tight aggressive style the rake impact is minimized because (a) you play fewer pots and (b) your pots are bigger. Move up to 3/6 or 4/8 as soon as you feel comfortable with "how to play".

The valuable hands are all pocket pairs, any two suited broadways (QTs, etc), suited connectors down to 65s (play < 98s in late position only), AK, AQ, AJ, and KQ offsuit. Other hands can be added in late position including suited aces, suited kings, and offsuit little broadways, weaker suited gappers (T8s, 53s, Q9s)

You need to play somewhat looser than "premium hands" because there are profitable opportunities to exploit loose passive play. For example you should be playing any two suited (yes, 72s) in the small blind when 4 or more limpers are in. When you flop a flush draw (yes, any flush draw) you should be figuring out how to trap everyone for multiple bets.
When you're on the button and you've flopped top pair, everyone checks to you, you're probably going to be betting every street for value. Yes, if you have K5s, the flop is KQ3, and no one is betting, you should bet the whole way unless it's like KQ3TJ at the river.
You'll figure out when to moderate your newfound looseness and aggression but try it (after reading Small Stakes Hold'em) and report back with some sample hand postings.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
No what I meant is that you said I played the hand poorly, which implies he played it well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hurts my brain. While each pot is a zero sum game, the "goodness" with which you play it is not. If me and Kit played a hand and I donked it up badly, that in and of itself does not mean he played it well.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.

I still don't think I played that hand as badly as you all make out. Yes, I lost. Yes, it cost me but it's not like I checked the damn thing to the river.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.

I still don't think I played that hand as badly as you all make out. Yes, I lost. Yes, it cost me but it's not like I checked the damn thing to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is obvious to respected posters in this thread that:
a. You dont understand basic gambling and poker-related concepts.

and

b. That you played the example hand poorly.

You can disagree, but people who play higher and have more experience seem to think you are wrong. If you want advice great, but it seems to me like you either want pity for your bad luck or you are already expert (miles ahead of us) and we would only hold you back.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.



[/ QUOTE ]

Slow down.

-McGee

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.

I still don't think I played that hand as badly as you all make out. Yes, I lost. Yes, it cost me but it's not like I checked the damn thing to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is obvious to respected posters in this thread that:
a. You dont understand basic gambling and poker-related concepts.

and

b. That you played the example hand poorly.

You can disagree, but people who play higher and have more experience seem to think you are wrong. If you want advice great, but it seems to me like you either want pity for your bad luck or you are already expert (miles ahead of us) and we would only hold you back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay - flame me if you want. I can take it, because of course everyone here is a winner 100% of the time. I am being honest and saying I need help, and you flame me. Fine.

I am saying that some people are making out that I played that hand so badly that it defied belief - I know I played it badly, I have tried to expand on the situation but if you are really that damn good you will know that every hand is not cut in black and white, right?

I am asking for help and taking that advice and using it. I am not asking for flames nor posts stroking your own e-peen because you think I do not understand odds, outs, implied odds, ev and so on. I'm not a complete beginner and I've done well in various casino games and tournaments in the UK for a long time. The major difference in Europe is the stakes (pot limit as opposed to Limit) and most of all the players - Vegas is pretty wild when you live here.

I'm not used to limit and it's hit me square between the eyes. I'm humble enough to admit that and you flame me. GG I guess. I bow down to your superior knowledge. /sigh

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.

I still don't think I played that hand as badly as you all make out. Yes, I lost. Yes, it cost me but it's not like I checked the damn thing to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is obvious to respected posters in this thread that:
a. You dont understand basic gambling and poker-related concepts.

and

b. That you played the example hand poorly.

You can disagree, but people who play higher and have more experience seem to think you are wrong. If you want advice great, but it seems to me like you either want pity for your bad luck or you are already expert (miles ahead of us) and we would only hold you back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay - flame me if you want. I can take it, because of course everyone here is a winner 100% of the time. I am being honest and saying I need help, and you flame me. Fine.

I am saying that some people are making out that I played that hand so badly that it defied belief - I know I played it badly, I have tried to expand on the situation but if you are really that damn good you will know that every hand is not cut in black and white, right?

I am asking for help and taking that advice and using it. I am not asking for flames nor posts stroking your own e-peen because you think I do not understand odds, outs, implied odds, ev and so on. I'm not a complete beginner and I've done well in various casino games and tournaments in the UK for a long time. The major difference in Europe is the stakes (pot limit as opposed to Limit) and most of all the players - Vegas is pretty wild when you live here.

I'm not used to limit and it's hit me square between the eyes. I'm humble enough to admit that and you flame me. GG I guess. I bow down to your superior knowledge. /sigh



[/ QUOTE ]

Calm down dude. I know where you're coming from to an extent. Some of the posters around here can have a condescending tone from time to time. It sucks, and it's not your fault; it's them. I think for a lot of people when you spend enough time doing something it's easy to get into a headspace where you can forget to be nice, especially to the noobs. They don't mean to make you feel bad.

However, this does not mean they are wrong. This thread does suggest that there are some fundamental concepts you don't understand yet. So read SSHE slowly, take notes, then read it again.

Good luck [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.

I still don't think I played that hand as badly as you all make out. Yes, I lost. Yes, it cost me but it's not like I checked the damn thing to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is obvious to respected posters in this thread that:
a. You dont understand basic gambling and poker-related concepts.

and

b. That you played the example hand poorly.

You can disagree, but people who play higher and have more experience seem to think you are wrong. If you want advice great, but it seems to me like you either want pity for your bad luck or you are already expert (miles ahead of us) and we would only hold you back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay - flame me if you want. I can take it, because of course everyone here is a winner 100% of the time. I am being honest and saying I need help, and you flame me. Fine.

I am saying that some people are making out that I played that hand so badly that it defied belief - I know I played it badly, I have tried to expand on the situation but if you are really that damn good you will know that every hand is not cut in black and white, right?

I am asking for help and taking that advice and using it. I am not asking for flames nor posts stroking your own e-peen because you think I do not understand odds, outs, implied odds, ev and so on. I'm not a complete beginner and I've done well in various casino games and tournaments in the UK for a long time. The major difference in Europe is the stakes (pot limit as opposed to Limit) and most of all the players - Vegas is pretty wild when you live here.

I'm not used to limit and it's hit me square between the eyes. I'm humble enough to admit that and you flame me. GG I guess. I bow down to your superior knowledge. /sigh



[/ QUOTE ]

I love the dramatics. You came in here looking for help and posted a hand as an example of you getting sucked out on. If you werent looking for criticism of that hand what were you looking for? Also, on these forums the best limit hold'em players in the world play hands terribly and are told as much when they post them. Sorry if telling you played a hand bad hurts your feelings. Next time we will tell you that you played it perfect and let you continue to suck.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

You asked "How do you deal with these very loose, very passive games?"

The answer is to play tight, adjust starting hands with position, and most of all value bet relentlessly with moderately strong hands. It isn't to get tricky heads up vs the typical fish at 2/4.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.

I still don't think I played that hand as badly as you all make out. Yes, I lost. Yes, it cost me but it's not like I checked the damn thing to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is obvious to respected posters in this thread that:
a. You dont understand basic gambling and poker-related concepts.

and

b. That you played the example hand poorly.

You can disagree, but people who play higher and have more experience seem to think you are wrong. If you want advice great, but it seems to me like you either want pity for your bad luck or you are already expert (miles ahead of us) and we would only hold you back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay - flame me if you want. I can take it, because of course everyone here is a winner 100% of the time. I am being honest and saying I need help, and you flame me. Fine.

I am saying that some people are making out that I played that hand so badly that it defied belief - I know I played it badly, I have tried to expand on the situation but if you are really that damn good you will know that every hand is not cut in black and white, right?

I am asking for help and taking that advice and using it. I am not asking for flames nor posts stroking your own e-peen because you think I do not understand odds, outs, implied odds, ev and so on. I'm not a complete beginner and I've done well in various casino games and tournaments in the UK for a long time. The major difference in Europe is the stakes (pot limit as opposed to Limit) and most of all the players - Vegas is pretty wild when you live here.

I'm not used to limit and it's hit me square between the eyes. I'm humble enough to admit that and you flame me. GG I guess. I bow down to your superior knowledge. /sigh



[/ QUOTE ]

I love the dramatics. You came in here looking for help and posted a hand as an example of you getting sucked out on. If you werent looking for criticism of that hand what were you looking for? Also, on these forums the best limit hold'em players in the world play hands terribly and are told as much when they post them. Sorry if telling you played a hand bad hurts your feelings. Next time we will tell you that you played it perfect and let you continue to suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Q.E.D - your reading comprehension is staggering. Good job.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

Everyone's quick to say there are concepts I do not understand yet.

Care to expand on that? I want to know what I am missing out on so I can learn.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I have the book and I've read about half of it (I am a fast reader) and I'm making a cheat sheet as I go to get laminated.

I still don't think I played that hand as badly as you all make out. Yes, I lost. Yes, it cost me but it's not like I checked the damn thing to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is obvious to respected posters in this thread that:
a. You dont understand basic gambling and poker-related concepts.

and

b. That you played the example hand poorly.

You can disagree, but people who play higher and have more experience seem to think you are wrong. If you want advice great, but it seems to me like you either want pity for your bad luck or you are already expert (miles ahead of us) and we would only hold you back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay - flame me if you want. I can take it, because of course everyone here is a winner 100% of the time. I am being honest and saying I need help, and you flame me. Fine.

I am saying that some people are making out that I played that hand so badly that it defied belief - I know I played it badly, I have tried to expand on the situation but if you are really that damn good you will know that every hand is not cut in black and white, right?

I am asking for help and taking that advice and using it. I am not asking for flames nor posts stroking your own e-peen because you think I do not understand odds, outs, implied odds, ev and so on. I'm not a complete beginner and I've done well in various casino games and tournaments in the UK for a long time. The major difference in Europe is the stakes (pot limit as opposed to Limit) and most of all the players - Vegas is pretty wild when you live here.

I'm not used to limit and it's hit me square between the eyes. I'm humble enough to admit that and you flame me. GG I guess. I bow down to your superior knowledge. /sigh



[/ QUOTE ]

I love the dramatics. You came in here looking for help and posted a hand as an example of you getting sucked out on. If you werent looking for criticism of that hand what were you looking for? Also, on these forums the best limit hold'em players in the world play hands terribly and are told as much when they post them. Sorry if telling you played a hand bad hurts your feelings. Next time we will tell you that you played it perfect and let you continue to suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Q.E.D - your reading comprehension is staggering. Good job.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, what am I missing? Also, people in this thread have tried to explain some of the concepts that you are misunderstanding but you still dont seem to get them. Your biggest problem is that you seem to believe that the reason you are losing is because of your opponents bad play and are posting examples of that play to prove your point. Just read the books. You cant be helped here. You are obviously unwilling to listen.

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone's quick to say there are concepts I do not understand yet.

Care to expand on that? I want to know what I am missing out on so I can learn.

[/ QUOTE ]In an attempt to help:
Variance
Value betting
Starting hand values
Who it is we make our money from

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

OP,

I really dont understand why you are taking any of this stuff personally.

Although some posters (me included, I apologize) may sometimes have a patronizing tone to our posts, 99.9% of them are not intended to show off or put down other posters. We want to see people in this forum improve their games. It's easy to simply say "nice hand," "you played it great," "you just got unlucky," etc, but the fact of the matter is one never learns from mistakes if one never realizes he is making them.

Here, although you didnt play the hand as bad as a lot people would, you could have definitely picked more profitable lines on the turn and river. I suggested these lines to you such that in the future you will make more money from these situations. Thus, what's not to like? I'm not posting here to show off amazing poker knowledge or put you down. You asked for help on a hand, and I gave it to you. I'm not going to sugarcoat things for you, and neither is anyone else here (and they shouldn't). Just read the advice given here, post more hands, and learn from and accept the criticism.

Many of the hands that I post on this forum are ones that I myself feel I played questionably. I thus fully expect to get bashed on a lot of them. That is how I learn and get better at poker, and how you should too.


-Kit

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone's quick to say there are concepts I do not understand yet.

Care to expand on that? I want to know what I am missing out on so I can learn.

[/ QUOTE ]In an attempt to help:
Variance
Value betting
Starting hand values
Who it is we make our money from

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your post. I appreciate it.

I understand variance. I know what it means and what it implies. I also know that if you flip a coin 10 times and it comes up heads every time, it's still even money it's going to be tails next time. I also understand this concept as applied to poker hands. Many people at low limits will not raise hands they should do because they "always get beat" and "why should I bother - everyone calls anyway". This is not me. I understand cards have no memory, the cosmic universe is not out to get me. There is no pattern!

I didn't deal Roulette in the UK for all those years and not take away a thing or two [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'd like to hear your idea of value betting. I am reading SSHE right now and I'm interested in everyone's take on it.

However, I'm curious as to why you think I have no idea of starting hand values because I lost with AK vs A2o after flopping top two?

Re: Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can\'t Find a Way Out
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP,

I really dont understand why you are taking any of this stuff personally.

Although some posters (me included, I apologize) may sometimes have a patronizing tone to our posts, 99.9% of them are not intended to show off or put down other posters. We want to see people in this forum improve their games. It's easy to simply say "nice hand," "you played it great," "you just got unlucky," etc, but the fact of the matter is one never learns from mistakes if one never realizes he is making them.

Here, although you didnt play the hand as bad as a lot people would, you could have definitely picked more profitable lines on the turn and river. I suggested these lines to you such that in the future you will make more money from these situations. Thus, what's not to like? I'm not posting here to show off amazing poker knowledge or put you down. You asked for help on a hand, and I gave it to you. I'm not going to sugarcoat things for you, and neither is anyone else here (and they shouldn't). Just read the advice given here, post more hands, and learn from and accept the criticism.

Many of the hands that I post on this forum are ones that I myself feel I played questionably. I thus fully expect to get bashed on a lot of them. That is how I learn and get better at poker, and how you should too.


-Kit

[/ QUOTE ]

And I appreciate your posts. What I don't like is the guy from MN (who is now on ignore so flame me all you want buddy - I will never see a word of it) who didn't even try to offer some advice. All he had was a bashing first post to inflate his own ego and to basically look down on a first-time poster.

I am all about asking for help and taking the advice I'm given or I wouldn't have posted. I will not end up like the local players I see when I play who constantly lament about their terrible luck and horrible lives, and look like they're playing their last $40. I'm here to win, and that's all there is to it.