What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

Hi,

Just wondering what the opinin is on the levels that coaching is most useful for. For example, it seems obvious that people who cant beat microstakes need coaching, but if you cant beat say 2/4 would coaching still be useful? By 2/4 most would have a solid grasp of poker book knowledge but obviously far from the finished poker player. At this level is there anything that can be taught by coaches or does it have to be improvement through making your own mistakes? Would about if your limit is 5/10, 10/20,etc. when does coaching become obsolete?

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

I know players who get coaches from small to high stakes. Getting different perspectives of your game and setting up your image and hand reading is part of what a coach can help you with etc. I also think it depends on your skill level and what you want to accomplish in poker. As an example, byrce is a high stakes HU specialist and does very very good in those high stakes games. If lets say a player who was a 50/100 player and is darn goood still can learn from byrce as he is learning from a better player.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

coaching is never obsolete

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

If anything coaching would be closer to obsolete in the microstakes than it would at mid-high. At microstakes players presumably have a smaller bankroll, and the vast majority of knowledge they lack can be attained from books or websites like this one. In either circumstance a coach could be very useful.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

Tiger Woods has a golf coach.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

over/under on how many times JoeTall has said this? I'm going with a million. Also, his point is great.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

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even michael jordan had a coach. even leonardo had a master splinter.

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Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

I would get a coach when i cant beat the limit i play anymore. Say you play 200k hands nlh2/4 and 3/6 and get results around 5-8ptbb but you just simply cant make the jump to 5/10 cause you get beat up badly every time you try or at least dont get very good results. Thats imo a good point to get a coach, i would heavily cosider how much you earn and have to spend for a coach too.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If anything coaching would be closer to obsolete in the microstakes than it would at mid-high. At microstakes players presumably have a smaller bankroll, and the vast majority of knowledge they lack can be attained from books or websites like this one. In either circumstance a coach could be very useful.

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The argument for micro stakes coaching is the opportunity cost of rising in limits. (If coaching is $200/hour but the 10 hours of coaching i pay for means 2 more months at 30/60 instead of 15/30 @ the same winrate then i should get coaching. At smaller stakes this difference is larger IMO.)

I have seen students who were playing 10 tables of 1/2 nl for 6 months shoot up to 6-8 tabling 3/6 and 5/10 nl within 2 months. Who knows if they EVER would have gotten there without coaching.

And they still get coached.

It's not only about learning to play - it's learning you're not alone out there. It's taking the game more seriously. It's trying harder to win. It just changes your mindset.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

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Tiger Woods has a golf coach.

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over/under on how many times JoeTall has said this? I'm going with a million. Also, his point is great.

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Full credit on the Tiger comment goes to Tommy Angelo, I just modified it. the other thing to consider it that Tiger Woods' coach has never won a major. Or at least I think he hasn't, I don't even know his name, does anyone? But I do know Tiger works with his coach constantly, year after year. The top player in the game of golf, has a coach.

So, now I guess I'll just sit back and wait for Stoxtrader and The Bryce to PM me.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

I recall hearing that Tiger's coach is the highest paid sportsman in New Zealand.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

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I recall hearing that Tiger's coach is the highest paid sportsman in New Zealand.

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That was his caddy, I don't think it still stands either.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
If anything coaching would be closer to obsolete in the microstakes than it would at mid-high. At microstakes players presumably have a smaller bankroll, and the vast majority of knowledge they lack can be attained from books or websites like this one. In either circumstance a coach could be very useful.

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The argument for micro stakes coaching is the opportunity cost of rising in limits. (If coaching is $200/hour but the 10 hours of coaching i pay for means 2 more months at 30/60 instead of 15/30 @ the same winrate then i should get coaching. At smaller stakes this difference is larger IMO.)


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The argument against micro-stakes coaching is the cost. Doesn't make sense when the fee for an hour is equal to the entire bankroll.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

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coaching is never obsolete

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Unless you are on the other end, playing 50 nl. The buyins/hour for coaching is really ugly down there.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

Joe Tall,

The Tiger Woods comparison is bunk. Poker is a completely mental game, completely different than golf. You could *try* to argue with chess players but that is a different game completely IMO where there is a correct way to play always, that isn't the case with poker.

Coaching is obsolete when you are better than anyone willing to coach you for a rate you'd pay that you feel will help improve your game.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

Theoretically, 'Tron, I disagree. Just because one player may be stronger in many areas than another doesn't mean that he cannot have the other player helping him in other areas where the other player is stronger, have him double checking his work, providing perspective, etc.

I think the reason this might not quite so much the case in actuality right now with top top end players is that poker is still at a point where anyone with a fairly complete understanding of the mathematical and inductive decision making process ends up in the upper echelons themselves. In ten years time after this stuff has become more common knowledge and is communicated more efficiently this might not be the case.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

Another reason for having the coach when you're a consistent winner at nosebleeds or whatever is for them to re-evaluate your game when you have downswings. I'm sure the majority of pros question their ability to win at least sometimes when they're on nasty downswings.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

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Joe Tall,

The Tiger Woods comparison is bunk. Poker is a completely mental game, completely different than golf. You could *try* to argue with chess players but that is a different game completely IMO where there is a correct way to play always, that isn't the case with poker.

Coaching is obsolete when you are better than anyone willing to coach you for a rate you'd pay that you feel will help improve your game.

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Golf is considered a more of a game, than sport. It's not in the Olympics for such reasons. I'll let Bryce's reply say the rest. He summed it up nicely.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Joe Tall,

The Tiger Woods comparison is bunk. Poker is a completely mental game, completely different than golf. You could *try* to argue with chess players but that is a different game completely IMO where there is a correct way to play always, that isn't the case with poker.

Coaching is obsolete when you are better than anyone willing to coach you for a rate you'd pay that you feel will help improve your game.

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Great post. After a while, you can determine your positive expected hourly rate. After that, what marginal differences could there be in your game that will increase your income that is worth paying for?

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Joe Tall,

The Tiger Woods comparison is bunk. Poker is a completely mental game, completely different than golf. You could *try* to argue with chess players but that is a different game completely IMO where there is a correct way to play always, that isn't the case with poker.

Coaching is obsolete when you are better than anyone willing to coach you for a rate you'd pay that you feel will help improve your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post. After a while, you can determine your positive expected hourly rate. After that, what marginal differences could there be in your game that will increase your income that is worth paying for?

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this answer is aside from the debate at hand, but if you play a decent amount of hours, the answer could be ANY marginal difference in your game that will increase your income is worth paying for.

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

I'm not sure if you're not a golfer, but a lot of golf is a mental approach. Especially when you play at the levels these guys play at. Why do you think that the leaderboard just falls to pieces when they see Tiger's name near the top? Why are these guys spending tons of money on sports shrinks? I'm sure I can get backed up by a lot of golfers on this board by saying if your head ain't right, your game is for crap. Golf is a combination of mental and physical and I think the Tiger Woods comment holds true. He's the best golfer on the planet right now and he has a coach. His mental approach is just as strong as his physical approach to the game. He realizes that as much as he knows, there is still more to learn.

I couldn't imagine the day I where I couldn't learn somethign new in any aspect of life. When you have nothing else to learn, then you are "PERFECT" in that sport/activity/whatever

** Edit **
Quoted the wrong post. Mean to quote TheMetetron's

Re: What levels is coaching no longer worth while?
 

Sushi has a gym coach.