A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

I promise this is different than the million posts saying "zomg whats the best stats to win monies?!?!?"

I've been thinking a lot about optimal pf play, especially after reading andy bloch's chapter in the full tilt tournament guide.

If you use his guidelines for the last four spots in a non-ante tournament you get a 30vpip with a pfr that i would estimate to be somewhere between 20-25 depending on your preferences between coldcalling and reraising.

Interestingly, this 30/20-25 style is employed by some successful LAGs but is definitely not the 2p2 "ideal" 22/18 unexploitable TAG pf strategy.

Specifically, his guidelines say to play:

UTG: 19%
MP: 24%
CO: 31%
B: 45%

My first thought was: wow that's a TON of hands, there's no way this can be right. Then I realized that maybe 45 percent of your hands on the button (being the first one in obviously) is right because with only two other players left you will have the best hand 33 percent of the time. Your VPIP should be at least 33 when you are facing two random hands. The fact that you have positional advantage throughout the hand makes it even more clear that 45 percent probably isn't a crazy number for opening from the button.

One area where I do disagree with Andy is in his selection of hand rankings because he tends to overvalue "showdown" type hands over hands that play well post flop in NLH such as small pocket pairs and low suited connectors. Obviously such hands aren't monsters but in a lot of cases they are better than K9o and other such garbage hands.

Anyhow on to the fun part. I used Pokerstove to translate the percentages into actual ranges of hands.
I would like some feedback on these ranges

UTG (19%): 22+, JTs+, ATo+, KJo+, 76s+, 97s+, A2s+

these hands certainly aren't the most robust in terms of their showdown percentages but they play well post flop and have deceptive value. That was my main reasoning for including a hand like 79s over KTo/QJo. To be honest, I'm kind of skeptical about ATo and KJo being included in the UTG range and could easily be persuaded to replace them with 86s, 75s, and 54s

MP (24%): add JTo+, 64s+, 54s+

Again, I am unsure of the addition of QTo specifically here... this hand is just so BAD... I'm really tempted to replace it with Q9s and J8s and like half a combination of T7s or maybe K9s. What are thoughts on this? Also should I be giving more credit to hands like A9o and lower at this point? I've always had a hatred of ace-rag and wasn't planning on including anything lower than AT until the CO

CO (31%): add A8o+, K8s+, 96s+, 53s+, 98o+, J9o, 43s+

Again I think i'm probably giving too much credit to suited cards and not enough to rag aces and unsuited medium cards/connectors like 87o, Q9o and K9o. Any input here is really appreciated. 43s probably doesn't deserve to make the cut here.

Button (45%): add A2o+, K7o+, K2s+, 63s+, 87o+

Well, there it is, and its certainly not perfect. Given the end goal of a 30/20-25 LAG who absolutely crushes the 100nl+ on stars (wouldn't it be nice), I'm sure there is a lot of work in dealing with how we will counterattack the constant 3betting that such a strategy will face. It will certainly be higher variance than a 20/16 tag game but I think from a mathematical perspective this may be a very strong pf strategy.

I look forward to hearing what you guys think. Specifically, if you think a certain hand should be included in lieu of another or if you simply disagree with Andy Bloch's percentages all together. Thanks in advance for reading such a long post and thanks in advance for your input.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

there is a post somewhere (by Pokey?) that has percentage and hand ranges

have you compared yours to those?

also, have you compared your percents to the pokerstove slider bar percents?

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

preflop ranges aren't really that important.

folding 85o on the button, or opening it doesnt make that much of a difference

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

no I haven't but I'd love to since I hear he is a very solid poster with a good understanding of math... if you have a link that would be great, i'm searching for his post right now.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop ranges aren't really that important.

folding 85o on the button, or opening it doesnt make that much of a difference

[/ QUOTE ]

/thread?

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

if you're not interested in discussing pf play thats fine. I feel that most of my strength comes from my post flop play, although that probably isn't evident from the few hands i've posted on 2p2. I simply want to know what others think of this application of andy bloch's percentages and what sort of effect they'd have in the 100 nl 6max games on stars, specifically.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

his UTG and UTG+1 is too wide

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is a post somewhere (by Pokey?) that has percentage and hand ranges

have you compared yours to those?

also, have you compared your percents to the pokerstove slider bar percents?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I have and that's what I was getting at earlier in the post and in my italicized comments on my own ranges. PStove and Bloch have similar rankings for the hands but I think they are mostly based on allin simulations and so tend to discount suited connectors and similar hands that play well post flop. They overvalue offsuit high-card hands imo.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

Thats actually the essence of the post. I'm not interested in hearing what people think about andy bloch's range of hands that he lists in his chapter. I'm interested in what they think of my modification of them for 6max online cash games.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop ranges aren't really that important.

folding 85o on the button, or opening it doesnt make that much of a difference

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

far too big a deal is made about pf

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thats actually the essence of the post. I'm not interested in hearing what people think about andy bloch's range of hands that he lists in his chapter. I'm interested in what they think of my modification of them for 6max online cash games.

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hand ranges change value depending on villains

vs tags the high card value you get from hands like QTo is almost non existant

vs lags the high card value you get from hands like QTo is much larger

and obviously things change depending on trickiness of lags, cr frequencies, etc.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thats actually the essence of the post. I'm not interested in hearing what people think about andy bloch's range of hands that he lists in his chapter. I'm interested in what they think of my modification of them for 6max online cash games.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a very good point, i would think for the sake of simplicity that it is probably easier for a multitabler to adopt a somewhat balanced strategy that assumes they will play a mix of lags and tags and then use reads/PAHUD to choose an appropriate range of hands to call a 3bet with, where you obviously call a LAG lighter and use non-dominated hands in position, preferably, against a TAG

hand ranges change value depending on villains

vs tags the high card value you get from hands like QTo is almost non existant

vs lags the high card value you get from hands like QTo is much larger

and obviously things change depending on trickiness of lags, cr frequencies, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

His ranges look good, and I use similar. Obviously any fixed strategy like this can get exploited by good players, but generally these are good guidelines for SH NL.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

Who cares about pf play when you can't play postflop well.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

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Who cares about pf play when you can't play postflop well.

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Isn't that when you should care? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

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Obviously any fixed strategy like this can get exploited by good players

[/ QUOTE ]

Shocking that a guy who's been studying unexploitable play for like 15 years missed something that's so obv to the common ssnl'er.

Someone should e-mail him and make him aware of this oversight.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

My button range is a lot more like this:

x%: pairs, big cards, connectors
y%: top 75%
z%: All

than:

"Button (45%): add A2o+, K7o+, K2s+, 63s+, 87o+."

Defined ranges down to the kicker on Jx is for limit, not no limit, and even there, the blinds' play factors a lot more heavily than any fixed guidelines can account for. In earlier positions this isn't as true, because the range within which you adjust is tighter, so it can be a reasonable approximation of actual play to state a guideline. For button play, it seems borderline useless, because the range of situational ranges is so wide.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

I don't mean that in a game theory randomizing way. I mean x% of the time the scenario calls for raising solid hands only, y% for raising anything I can find any reason to play, z% for raising anything.

Of course there's a gradation between x and y.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
His ranges look good, and I use similar. Obviously any fixed strategy like this can get exploited by good players, but generally these are good guidelines for SH NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

by "his" do you mean andy bloch's ranges or my ranges?

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

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his UTG and UTG+1 is too wide

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qft, imo in true lag play there is a HUGE gap between utg+1 and CO vpip/pfr (which are the same thing basically).

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

lol that's pretty much my preflop range

but yeah, tufat is right

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

Yeah I would never open ATo or KJo UTG and certainly not QTo and KTo UTG+1. Those are hands that are so bad when playing OOP.

And there's a lot more hands that I wouldn't open with there, but I'm tight.

As far as button opening ranges go, given the rest of the field folded, anything between 40% and 100% is okay depending on the blinds (VPIP will be a lot lower since you can't open when someone else opened already). Vs tight blinds I open ATC but vs avid blind defenders I only open with playable hands.

I think choosing to open 85o on the button DOES matter in some situations, cause if the blinds are folding to steals 95% of the time, you are leaving value if you don't steal with trash on the button. But I'm not sure how much this accounts for in the winrate.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously any fixed strategy like this can get exploited by good players

[/ QUOTE ]

Shocking that a guy who's been studying unexploitable play for like 15 years missed something that's so obv to the common ssnl'er.

Someone should e-mail him and make him aware of this oversight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I don't think it is that obvious. Yeah if you are playing a fixed strategy ridiculously tight or loose, but this range looks reasonably balanced to me. How would you go about exploiting this range? If it's obvious, it shouldn't take too long to explain, right?

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously any fixed strategy like this can get exploited by good players

[/ QUOTE ]

Shocking that a guy who's been studying unexploitable play for like 15 years missed something that's so obv to the common ssnl'er.

Someone should e-mail him and make him aware of this oversight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I don't think it is that obvious. Yeah if you are playing a fixed strategy ridiculously tight or loose, but this range looks reasonably balanced to me. How would you go about exploiting this range? If it's obvious, it shouldn't take too long to explain, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's only exploitable if you're playing vs the same good players for thousands and thousands of hands. If you play this fixed strategy, the good players can for example rule out that you could have K9o or 32o if you open UTG, so they can exploit you (a little) at that point. But it's not a big deal.

However, Andy's strategy is geared towards tournament play and in a tournament you don't play a lot of hands vs the same opponents, so there is no chance for them to exploit you on that.

So whether it's obvious or not, it's irrelevant anyway so that will be the reason that Andy doesn't mention it.

Also, I think curious123 was leveling.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

take it fwiw

a little hot from the SB and cold from the BTN

http://aycu21.webshots.com/image/297...1374223_rs.jpg

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

i think that the ranges for UTG and MP are too wide, just like tufat and other people said already.

i think that 30/20 or 30/25 is too loose for 100NL, where you can play laggy more sucessfully at 25/20 or so.

my standard UTG range is 22+, AJ+, KQ+.

i think this is a good starting point even for a LAG, then after they get a feel for the table, they can open it up to similar stats to the ones mentioned.

opening KJo UTG at a table of unknowns is suicide

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

open smallpockets utg at fishy nl100(bunch of 50vip donkeys)tables are also suicide

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

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open smallpockets utg at fishy nl100(bunch of 50vip donkeys)tables are also suicide

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i'd rather open 22 than KJo UTG in these games. so you will not win the pot very often, but when you do you are gonna stack someone. wheras you are never entirely sure where you are with KJo

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, this 30/20-25 style is employed by some successful LAGs but is definitely not the 2p2 "ideal" 22/18 unexploitable TAG pf strategy.

Specifically, his guidelines say to play:

UTG: 19%
MP: 24%
CO: 31%
B: 45%


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read the responses, but my first thought was, just because he might be opening 45% from the button probably doesn't mean he's *playing* 45% from the button. I mean, he might open K7o but he probably won't call a raise with it if UTG opens. Same holds true for a lot of hands, and in later stages of a tourney it's pretty rare that a button gets to open a hand anyways. So, this might not really equate to a 30/25 style after all. Also, preflop discussions about tourney play are pretty irrelevant without considering stacks. Like, SCs and low/mid PPs are very playable with deeper stacks, but when stacks are shallow flat calling a PFR with 76s is just kinda dumb, etc.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, this 30/20-25 style is employed by some successful LAGs but is definitely not the 2p2 "ideal" 22/18 unexploitable TAG pf strategy.

Specifically, his guidelines say to play:

UTG: 19%
MP: 24%
CO: 31%
B: 45%


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read the responses, but my first thought was, just because he might be opening 45% from the button probably doesn't mean he's *playing* 45% from the button. I mean, he might open K7o but he probably won't call a raise with it if UTG opens. Same holds true for a lot of hands, and in later stages of a tourney it's pretty rare that a button gets to open a hand anyways. So, this might not really equate to a 30/25 style after all. Also, preflop discussions about tourney play are pretty irrelevant without considering stacks. Like, SCs and low/mid PPs are very playable with deeper stacks, but when stacks are shallow flat calling a PFR with 76s is just kinda dumb, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Tournaments are very different from cash play. Not just percentages, but types of hands to play, influence of position, importance of blind stealing etc. I don't think there's much to be gained by trying to convert over from recommended tournament ranges, or to use "fixed" preflop ranges in cash games.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

These are the non-ante percentages of hands to play by position. And yes, they are for opening the pot, when no one else has entered yet. Sorry I didn't originally make that super clear, I thought it was obvious.

My intuition tells me that opening KJo UTG probably isn't profitable but then again since it's at the very bottom of your range, maybe you just aren't really supposed to put much if any money in the pot when someone calls you, where as you profit when they make calls against the top half of your range. This seems to be what andy bloch is talking about when he says you want to steal the blinds half the time and free roll on the flop the other half when they call instead of 3betting you.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
This seems to be what andy bloch is talking about when he says you want to steal the blinds half the time and free roll on the flop the other half when they call instead of 3betting you.

[/ QUOTE ]

These concepts are far more important in tournaments than in cash games. Now that I've repeated myself, I'll stop here.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

theres absolutely no difference when antes aren't involved if the tournament has effective stacks of 100bb and isn't close to the bubble where cEV diverges from normal EV. DUCY?

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

Also, I just realized how dumb I am, and that yes, this will NOT translate into a 30vpip strategy because obviously players will enter the pot before me and force me to fold hands that I'd normally play.

What do you guys think of his suggestion to, if you don't have good information on a player, to react to a limp from someone by pretending that you are two spots earlier than you really are. That is, say UTG limps, and you are button- you use your opening range for mp... he also says that he recommends limping along a lot also, but i know a lot of posters on here prefer raising to isolate. some more interesting material for discussion.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
theres absolutely no difference when antes aren't involved if the tournament has effective stacks of 100bb and isn't close to the bubble where cEV diverges from normal EV. DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

So WTF? Who the hell posts tournament theory about 100bb stacks? [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

You'll get smashed by aggressive 3-bettors if you try to play this many hands in a tough game. LOL.

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

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[ QUOTE ]
You'll get smashed by aggressive 3-bettors if you try to play this many hands in a tough game. LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shocking that a guy who's been studying unexploitable play for like 15 years missed something that's so obv to the common ssnl'er.

Someone should e-mail him and make him aware of this oversight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
You'll get smashed by aggressive 3-bettors if you try to play this many hands in a tough game. LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to explain why?

Re: A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch\'s pf raising theory
 

[ QUOTE ]
he also says that he recommends limping along a lot also, but i know a lot of posters on here prefer raising to isolate. some more interesting material for discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its easy enough to put pressure on the (<20BBs) villains post flop in a limped pot in a tourney from LP. It's not going to be as effective in cash games.