Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

Live 25/50 limit holdem.

On the turn, where the big bet is $50, it checks around to the player in last position, who bets all in for $30. The next player to act, the guy in the blind who checked the turn, announces a raise and puts in $80. Everyone else in the hand objects and says he can only complete the bet to $50. The dealer tells them since the bet was more than half, he is allowed to raise. They call the floor, and the floor rules that he can only complete. The dealer then shakes her head vehemently and says in broken English that the bet was more than half and he can make it 80. Then some player says that because the raiser checked initially, he can't make it 80 against an all-in player.

Much arguing ensues and it stops the game for a few minutes, until the floor raises his voice to everyone and puts his foot down that the bet has to stand at only a completed $50.

Once and for all -- the dealer was right here, not the floor. Yes? This isn't a rule that should vary by cardroom, right?

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

I'm fairly certain that the floor can never be wrong, at least thats what they tell me.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

I'm not surprised that the floorman didn't know the rules.

I am surprised that $25-50 players don't know it.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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I'm not surprised that the floorman didn't know the rules.

I am surprised that $25-50 players don't know it.

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Perhaps I wrong, but I thought that not long ago a some who deals in a Northeralifornia club posted that there rule was that only a full bet reopened the betting even in a limit game. Perhaps that is the rule in this club?

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

If this is a limit game, doesn't the raise have to be to $100?

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

We had this argument constantly at the cardroom I play and we FINALLY got them to put a house rule that all floor have to abide by:
'A player with less than a full bet may call a bet, but he/she may NOT initiate a bet/raise'

Don't know if this is a common rule (Robert's Rule) or if they adapted their own rule. But at least is is now consistant.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

In AC the dealer's ruling would have been the correct one.

Less then half the bet and the raise completes to a full bet, more than half the bet a raise is the bet + full bet.

In 20/40

$15 or less for all in((whites don't play in this game in AC) the raise is to $40

$20 or more and the raise is $40 + all in amount

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

Here's how it works generally, he should be able to raise since it's more than half the bet. If the bet were less than half of a big bet he would only be able to call because you can't check and then complete.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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If this is a limit game, doesn't the raise have to be to $100?

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No sir. $30 +$50 = $80

YOU DO NOT GET TO COMPLTE AND RAISE.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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In AC the dealer's ruling would have been the correct one.

Less then half the bet and the raise completes to a full bet, more than half the bet a raise is the bet + full bet.

In 20/40

$15 or less for all in((whites don't play in this game in AC) the raise is to $40

$20 or more and the raise is $40 + all in amount

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I haven't been in AC in years but when i did play this was not how it was done.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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Perhaps I wrong, but I thought that... only a full bet reopened the betting even in a limit game. Perhaps that is the rule in this club?

[/ QUOTE ]From Robet's Rules:
In limit play, an all-in wager of less than half a bet does not reopen the betting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets. A player facing less than half a bet may fold, call, or complete the wager. An all-in wager of a half a bet or more is treated as a full bet, and a player may fold, call, or make a full raise.

This is how I've always seen it handled at Commerce, though it sounds like you were playing at Hustler(?)

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I wrong, but I thought that... only a full bet reopened the betting even in a limit game. Perhaps that is the rule in this club?

[/ QUOTE ]From Robet's Rules:
In limit play, an all-in wager of less than half a bet does not reopen the betting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets. A player facing less than half a bet may fold, call, or complete the wager. An all-in wager of a half a bet or more is treated as a full bet, and a player may fold, call, or make a full raise.

This is how I've always seen it handled at Commerce, though it sounds like you were playing at Hustler(?)

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I wasn't playing anywhere. You conveniently edited out the part of my post that said another poster had stated this was the rule in the club he dealt in. (I might have been wrong about that)

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I wrong, but I thought that... only a full bet reopened the betting even in a limit game. Perhaps that is the rule in this club?

[/ QUOTE ]From Robert's Rules:
In limit play, an all-in wager of less than half a bet does not reopen the betting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets. A player facing less than half a bet may fold, call, or complete the wager. An all-in wager of a half a bet or more is treated as a full bet, and a player may fold, call, or make a full raise.

This is how I've always seen it handled at Commerce, though it sounds like you were playing at Hustler(?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't playing anywhere. You conveniently edited out the part of my post that said another poster had stated this was the rule in the club he dealt in. (I might have been wrong about that)

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry. I was addressing Joker, but quoting your post to agree with it.

Edit: To clarify--My understanding is if you're the BB and check, then CO bets 30 all-in and Button calls, then you can only call. But if you check, CO bets 30 all-in and button raises to 80, then you can re-raise to 130.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

found the old post:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...page=&vc=1

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

My reading comprehension is worse than my math today. Since the all-in was more than half a bet, BB should be able to reopen.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

The only place I know that spreads 25-50 uses standard LA rules (half a bet in limit reopens action). I know Pechanga uses (or used) a full bet to reopen action. With the growth of NL I can see people being confused. When NL was being introduced many people tried to apply the half bet standard to NL so I can see that now some places wold apply the NL rule to limit.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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Once and for all -- the dealer was right here, not the floor. Yes? This isn't a rule that should vary by cardroom, right?

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Yeah, the dealer was right in any LA cardroom that spreads 25/50. Some backwaters (e.g., Normandie) may do it differently though.

This was a simple one that should never be ruled incorrectly. Yet on slightly more complicated situations it's even sicker that so many dealers, a significant number of floor and even managers don't understand it completely. It's cut and dry and impacts the action so it's especially bad for the game.

At one time (when I worked for the Bike) I wanted to write a detailed quiz that would encompass every combination possible along with betting cap situations. Then I woke up to the realization that exposing weaknesses in club training and dealer/floor knowledge would just piss people off.

~ Rick

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

Yeah this was at Hustler. I was surprised that the floorman got it wrong (and so did the players -- although I think the players were motivated by their own interest in paying as little as possible to see the river); but then again he's not the best floorman at Hustler.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah this was at Hustler. I was surprised that the floorman got it wrong (and so did the players -- although I think the players were motivated by their own interest in paying as little as possible to see the river); but then again he's not the best floorman at Hustler.

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I better hedge my bets here. Since they weren't in operation Hustler didnt' participate in the 1997 upgrade of the more or less common LA rulebook (The Bike, Commerce and Hollywood Park did). It's possible they use a different rule book and rely on the old methods (where half a bet or more in limit is "action only").

~ Rick

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

Next time you are in the room, I would speak to the floor supervisor and ask what the rule in the room is very explicitly. And if the floor got it wrong according to house rules, you should tell him who it was and ask that his interpretation be corrected.

In every place I have ever played, the floor made the wrong call.

Jeff

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

Dealer is right. More than half a bet can be raised, and in this instance, $50+$30=$80. Floor is a douche.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

This is different everywhere.

In my game, since it wasn't a full bet, all anybody who had already acted could do is call.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

when i played in that game regularly it was always a half bet to reopen...which floor was it?

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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when i played in that game regularly it was always a half bet to reopen...which floor was it?

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Is it kosher to say his name? It was Sal.

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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when i played in that game regularly it was always a half bet to reopen...which floor was it?

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Is it kosher to say his name? It was Sal.

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Probably doesn't matter since you're not really ratting him out given few (if any) in LA Cardroom management read this forum.

~ Rick

Re: Dealer vs. Floor over a ruling
 

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This isn't a rule that should vary by cardroom, right?

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Apparently it does.
In San Jose, the only thing the players who checked could do would be to call the $30. They cannot make it $80 or $50.