5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

Okay, this hand DEFINITELY needs some reads and stats.

MP is something like 43/4/1.75 but he has donked me everytime when a scare card hits without any regard for his own hand. He has done it in protected pots, HU pots, whatever. Assume, for this hand, that this player does NOT have us beat.

BB: 20/13/3.75
UTG: 59/11/1.0

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero...

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, this hand DEFINITELY needs some reads and stats.

MP is something like 43/4/1.75 but he has donked me everytime when a scare card hits without any regard for his own hand. He has done it in protected pots, HU pots, whatever. Assume, for this hand, that this player does NOT have us beat.

BB: 20/13/3.75
UTG: 59/11/1.0

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand really sucks since you are probably going to get raised by BB even if you call. I would fold since the play of the hand suggests that most of your extra outs are in the hands of your opponents and the fact that you can hit a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or a T and still lose. You basically have one clean out - T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

It's tough but I think I would still have to call here. You might still have the best hand and you still have outs.

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

i think i would call the flop, the way you played it, i would call the turn, when it gets raised behind me, i will call and fold the river ui

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

[quote

This hand really sucks since you are probably going to get raised by BB even if you call. I would fold since the play of the hand suggests that most of your extra outs are in the hands of your opponents and the fact that you can hit a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or a T and still lose. You basically have one clean out - T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

How is the T hearts the only clean out? I would count all tens as full outs and the T hearts as a partial out. Hearts MAY be good for you as well.

I think you misread which cards were hearts, thinking the T hearts makes a straight flush?

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

Wow. Tough spot.

I guess maybe I peel and see what happens behind me?

Nah, that was just a first thought. I think I just give it up.

Man, what an annoying donkbet, especially if it probably means nothing.

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

It's really troublesome that you have two flop cold-callers to act behind you.

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

I raise the turn and that the last $ that I'll put in.

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the turn and that the last $ that I'll put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold to 3-bet?

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the turn and that the last $ that I'll put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's this or folding. i really can't decide. BB is the troublesome one, but it's possible you could move him off 2pr with a raise.

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

I like calling and seeing what happens behind me. You still have possible straight and flush outs in a big pot, and you could be ahead. If you get checkraised by either BB or UTG I might consider folding.

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise the turn and that the last $ that I'll put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's this or folding. i really can't decide. BB is the troublesome one, but it's possible you could move him off 2pr with a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think we can safely fold to a 3 bet here or do we have any outs? I think if I take this line here, I can fold to the taggish player who is likely to call with a straight and weak flush. Plus, the fact that he doesn't play many hands would make it more likely that my flush draw is no good b/c he already has a higher one if he reraises. Thoughts?

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

easy fold to a 3bet IMO. if TAG 3bets he has a flush a LOT , how could he have a lower one? it's either T-hi or 5 hi and with T-hi he flopped a gutter and would have put in a lot more bets.

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy fold to a 3bet IMO. if TAG 3bets he has a flush a LOT , how could he have a lower one? it's either T-hi or 5 hi and with T-hi he flopped a gutter and would have put in a lot more bets.

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Yeah, I think I'm leaning towards this line here. A raise might protect my hand if I do have the best hand..it might possibly get a better hand to fold...and, if needed, I can take a free showdown....that is if MP doesn't donk me again [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

This is just a really ugly spot!
How strong is your read on the taggy BB/How many hands?

That fact that a tag called two back on the flop worries me,based on that and with that board I don't think your beating the field any more, I think a fold is your best option, If you call and the BB check raises it just gets uglier.
Thankfully situations like this don't happen all the time or my brain would meltdown!

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is just a really ugly spot!
How strong is your read on the taggy BB/How many hands?

That fact that a tag called two back on the flop worries me,based on that and with that board I don't think your beating the field any more, I think a fold is your best option, If you call and the BB check raises it just gets uglier.
Thankfully situations like this don't happen all the time or my brain would meltdown!

[/ QUOTE ]

On the Taggish BB, I only have 60 hands. On the donking MP player, my read is fairly reliable. Since it doesn't really do anything for the correct play here, here is MP's hand (in white):

<font color="white"> Qc7c for a pair of 7's </font>

As far as the TAG BB, I think he could have 2 pair, top pair good kicker, a straight draw, or a flush draw.

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

I would call here and see what happens behind me. If it gets raised behind me then i might just dump it on the turn.

Results and the Rest of the Hand
 

The thread is dying down a little so here are the results. I almost timed out on this hand (I think that is understandable) and at the last second hit the call button. With more thought put into it, I like a raise and a fold to a 3 bet on the turn. There was talk about us possibly not beating the BB tagish player, but he ended up folding the turn.


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (11.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 14.20 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has 6s 5s (straight, nine high).
MP has Qc 7c (two pair, eights and sevens).
Hero has Js Jh (two pair, jacks and eights).
Outcome: UTG wins 14.20 BB. </font>

The river on this is even debatable given my position. Looks like my read on MP was correct [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 JJ: I know I\'m beating the bettor but DO I STILL FOLD?
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy fold to a 3bet IMO. if TAG 3bets he has a flush a LOT , how could he have a lower one? it's either T-hi or 5 hi and with T-hi he flopped a gutter and would have put in a lot more bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

if this were the case, calling and folding to a checkraise from a tag is the same and cost less bets. There is no way a TAG will checkraise 2 callers on the turn without a flush. Raising is just a more expensive way to find out the same information as calling, and raising to isolate is just too risky and expensive with this many players in the pot IMO.