AC nosedive accelerating
 

http://www.state.nj.us/casinos/finan...09_revenue.pdf

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Wow. Look at the Tropicana numbers, what an unmitigated disaster. Even the numbers back up what anyone with two eyes can see for himself.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Does Poker income fall under table games or is that a different revenue stream? It's not really a "Casino Win" like slots and blackjack.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Yes, poker falls under table games.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Speaking of poker, it seems to buck the general trend, at least for Borgata, Taj, and Caesars. For Trop, not so much, only a 28% decrease in revenue from year to year.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Not so bad for a disgusting dump of a location populated by crappy joints and rife with crime and corruption.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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Not so bad for a disgusting dump of a location populated by crappy joints and rife with crime and corruption.

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That's not really a fair description of AC, only the fancy areas measure up to this standard.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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Does Poker income fall under table games or is that a different revenue stream? It's not really a "Casino Win" like slots and blackjack.

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Yes, but you can look at the actual reports and see poker income broken out.

September 2007:

Borg -- $3.41 million
Trop -- $659,000
Taj -- $2.05 million

For comparison, September 2006:

Borg: $3.12 million
Trop: $915,000
Taj: $1.94 million

Conclusion: Poker is healthy. The Trop is not.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

It'll be fine. There's still a market for the upper scale places, the better places are not dropping off if you look at the YTD numbers. The smaller, older casinos aren't keeping up with what the market wants. Upscale is where it's at.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

And its not like there arent projects in the works to make this more of a destination that people are going to want to come to.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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YONKERS — Video slot machines have brought Yonkers Raceway back to life, with a $4 billion casino operation that has rejuvenated the dying harness track.

One year after it reopened with a Vegas-style casino, Empire City at Yonkers Raceway is a cash machine, drawing more than 90,000 patrons a week and netting nearly $40 million a month.

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The $40 million per month Yonkers net revenue is a little more than the total monthly AC decline in slot machine revenue.

I believe that is the reason for the AC decline. Perhaps the slide for AC will be merely a plateau (we should revisit in a year).

Yonkers slot revenues

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

If anything they should be promoting poker in AC.

Pennsylvania and other nearby locales have openned competing slot machines, but no competing poker rooms.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

September 2007 Poker

Casino (Authorized Tables) - Total Win, Average/Table
Borgata (120) - $3,412,697, $28,439 Average/Table
Trump Taj (60) - $2,048,634, $30,127 Average/Table
Tropicana (48) - $659,120, $13,732 Average/Table
Caesars (24) - $555,517, $23,147 Average/Table
Bally's (32) - $347,637, $10,864 Average/Table
Showboat (23) - $334,457, $14,542 Average/Table
Harrah's (24) - $304,770, $12,699 Average/Table
Hilton (23) - $221,996, $9,652 Average/Table
Resorts (8) - $68,970, $8,621 Average/Table

In the battle of who is the number three poker room in Atlantic City, Tropicana took in more money, but Caesars has a better average per authorized table.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

The Taj has only 60 authorized tables? Did they downsize their room? I thought they had about 80 at one point.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

I was wondering about that too...but since I haven't been there in seven months, I assumed things may have changed. Also Borgata doesn't have 120 tables in their standard room, its about 85.

Personally I'd love to see the Harrah's properties consolidate - maybe into Caesars/Showboat or something like that. AC doesn't really need more than about four good sized rooms - the two gorillas, Trop, and a Harrahs room.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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I was wondering about that too...but since I haven't been there in seven months, I assumed things may have changed. Also Borgata doesn't have 120 tables in their standard room, its about 85.

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It's normal for the authorized total to exceed the number of tables actually in play; this allows them, for example, to add tables for special events without new authorization.

However, an authorized total below the number of tables actually in play is more difficult to explain.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

As a Pennsylvania resident I'm happy to see AC losing money to PA slots parlors and racinos. Last time I was in AC I played poker at Ceasars. The poker room was packed and they had ONE waitress for the entire room. I got sick of waiting for a drink, so I walked up to the bar on the casino floor. I ordered a 7&7 and handed the guy a $10. I got $1 change! I asked him if I broke something. 9 freakin bucks for a drink! AC has nothing to give in the way of service, hositality, or overall value. I hope PA and DE establishments continue to pick thier pockets.

/rant

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Not to mention in the earlier years AC hookers had the highest rate of AIDS per head (no pun intended) in the country. They compensated by practicing safe sex, though. They'd reach in the car windows at traffic lights, rub the driver and 2 minutes later, a mile away, he's notice his wallet was gone.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Countered by more slot parlors and casinos opening in adjoining states.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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I was wondering about that too...but since I haven't been there in seven months, I assumed things may have changed. Also Borgata doesn't have 120 tables in their standard room, its about 85.


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I noticed it too, and then I noticed that Borgata only has 120 tables in September, both this and last year. In the other months it still has 85 tables. I guess those extra 35 tables come out for WPT event.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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I was wondering about that too...but since I haven't been there in seven months, I assumed things may have changed. Also Borgata doesn't have 120 tables in their standard room, its about 85.


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I noticed it too, and then I noticed that Borgata only has 120 tables in September, both this and last year. In the other months it still has 85 tables. I guess those extra 35 tables come out for WPT event.

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The "big event" tournaments don't factor into the limit, that's authorized differently. It's not uncommon for one of the small rooms to host tournaments in a special events room with more tables than their actual poker room. The number of tables authorized permanently has more to do with the physical space the casino intends to put them in.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

What else can explain why Borgata gains 35 tables once every September, which coincides with a jump in revenues? Do they have a different guy crunching the numbers in Septembers?

The simplest explanation is that those extra 35 tables are those tables in the other room that come out for big tourneys, and that extra revenue is all the tournament juice.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

And Meanwhile - MGM Grand announces plans to put up the largest hotel / casino / shopping in AC 5 billion $ project on 72 acres next to the Borgata.

Maybe people recognize that old seedy hotels don't attract crowds of fun loving spenders.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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What else can explain why Borgata gains 35 tables once every September, which coincides with a jump in revenues? Do they have a different guy crunching the numbers in Septembers?

The simplest explanation is that those extra 35 tables are those tables in the other room that come out for big tourneys, and that extra revenue is all the tournament juice.

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This is likely correct. September is when they host one of the WPT events at the Borgata.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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And its not like there arent projects in the works to make this more of a destination that people are going to want to come to.

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There are some developments in place that indicate that at least some casino and development companies grasp the concept that medium priced, attractive properties tend to do better than cheap, dumpy places.

On the other hand, take a look at the upcoming "concert" events scheduled at some of the older properties. KC and the Sunshine Band, Kool & the Gang, and Aretha Franklin are among the recent "big concerts." It's as if some of these places are still stuck in the 1970s.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Three new hotels in the works (incuding the MGM/Mirage) and room expansion at Harrah's, Borgata, and Taj.

I'm guessing these guys feel they have good reasons for the investments.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

MGM was supposed to do an AC project with the Mashantucket Pequots from Foxwoods. Foxwoods backed out and opted to do a Poconos project. MGM decided to go it alone. Pinnacle is looking to get out already. They've used the excuse that if AC rezones Bader Field for Wynn they won't build. New projects won't mean more gamblers. It will just take players from the dwindling pool at the other dumps. The enclosed smoking areas haven't even been implemented yet. That and new casinos and slot parlors in nearby states guarantee the decline continues. Hmm...AC..or the Poconos? Where to go? You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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MGM decided to go it alone.

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Again, fairly successful company, I'm guessing they know something about the industry...no?

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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MGM was supposed to do an AC project with the Mashantucket Pequots from Foxwoods. Foxwoods backed out and opted to do a Poconos project. MGM decided to go it alone. Pinnacle is looking to get out already. They've used the excuse that if AC rezones Bader Field for Wynn they won't build. New projects won't mean more gamblers. It will just take players from the dwindling pool at the other dumps. The enclosed smoking areas haven't even been implemented yet. That and new casinos and slot parlors in nearby states guarantee the decline continues. Hmm...AC..or the Poconos? Where to go? You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

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There are a whole bunch of projects on the books in AC, at least including Revel, CityCenter East, Pinnacle, and Wynn. It's likely that at least one will not get built the near term, because that would be an awful lot of development at once. This is not because it's a dying market; indeed, the upscale properties continue to perform well. Slot revenues are down but table games and hotel room rates continue to get better for operators. AC has a strong future that will involve shifting from a local casino model to a destination casino model.

Proposed casino projects get scuttled all the time in Vegas (the W Hotel, for example). Is that a sign that Vegas is a dying market?

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

We're talking about AC, not Vegas. The numbers show it's a dying market.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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We're talking about AC, not Vegas. The numbers show it's a dying market.

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There was bound to be some effect from the addition of all the nearby slots that recently sprung up. To extrapolate that adjustment to say it's a permanent downward trend and the market is dying is missing the big picture. A different customer base is being attracted by upscale properties like the Borgata, and that's why there are so many huge properties being developed.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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We're talking about AC, not Vegas. The numbers show it's a dying market.

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What is your agenda?

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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If anything they should be promoting poker in AC.

Pennsylvania and other nearby locales have openned competing slot machines, but no competing poker rooms.

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Something I've always wondered was if a state allowed slots but not poker, and slots included "video poker," then might that allow the Poker Tek computerized poker tables?

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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Something I've always wondered was if a state allowed slots but not poker, and slots included "video poker," then might that allow the Poker Tek computerized poker tables?

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It depends how the law is written in each state. I assume they can't legally in Pennsylvania, or otherwise they would. On the other hand, Harrah's Cherokee in NC has computerized blackjack tables, because the state compact allows computerized games but not card games. I believe Delaware Park has electronic poker and blackjack, even though regular table games are illegal in Delaware.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

I post facts from the NJ CCC. What's your agenda for jumping to the defense of casinos?

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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I post facts from the NJ CCC.

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And I am sure you will post a link next month to that month's report. And the month after that. And the month after that. And tell us the casinos in AC are losing money. They are dying.

Point?

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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I post facts from the NJ CCC. What's your agenda for jumping to the defense of casinos?

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You are using really charged language by saying AC is "dying". It is still way ahead of where it was 5 years ago. The WSOP Main Event got fewer entries this year than last. Is it dying?

Why should we care if the casinos are making more money this year than last? The Borgata poker room isn't going anywhere.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

Maybe everyone already gets this, but just in case...

A statement of year-over-year decline in gross revenue does not shed any real light on year-over-year profitability. Revenue is only one part of the profit equation; expenses, depreciation, taxes, interest (both accrued and owed), potential liabilities (lawsuits, employee pensions, union strikes, state government shutdowns, etc.) and other categories also must be taken into account.

A leap of logic from "revenue is lower than a year ago" to "the casinos are in a nosedive" is fallacious. The OP needs to bring more data to the table if he wants to make his case.

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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And its not like there arent projects in the works to make this more of a destination that people are going to want to come to.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are some developments in place that indicate that at least some casino and development companies grasp the concept that medium priced, attractive properties tend to do better than cheap, dumpy places.

On the other hand, take a look at the upcoming "concert" events scheduled at some of the older properties. KC and the Sunshine Band, Kool & the Gang, and Aretha Franklin are among the recent "big concerts." It's as if some of these places are still stuck in the 1970s.

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About time I went to AC [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AC nosedive accelerating
 

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Maybe everyone already gets this, but just in case...

A statement of year-over-year decline in gross revenue does not shed any real light on year-over-year profitability. Revenue is only one part of the profit equation; expenses, depreciation, taxes, interest (both accrued and owed), potential liabilities (lawsuits, employee pensions, union strikes, state government shutdowns, etc.) and other categories also must be taken into account.

A leap of logic from "revenue is lower than a year ago" to "the casinos are in a nosedive" is fallacious. The OP needs to bring more data to the table if he wants to make his case.

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This is true. In fact, some casinos have been known to lose money by giving away cash to customers to bump up their gross revenue numbers.

That said, it seems clear that AC is losing its local slot monopoly. The older casinos that rely on slot playing daytrippers are going to take a hit. Borgata and the yet-to-be-built casinos will be well positioned. The others will need to improve to compete.