Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

different line for Lee Childs???

Jerry is so aggressive this would have been a great spot to C/R...how would u of played it 2p2?

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

Call preflop reraise, checkraise all-in on flop

</thread>

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[x] anything that involves the chips in the pot

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[x] should be posted in current WSOP Final Table thread.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

how do you fold qq there with less then 50 bb's?

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

please god, dear father make me a believer
Let the jacks hold

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
different line for Lee Childs???

Jerry is so aggressive this would have been a great spot to C/R...how would u of played it 2p2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, but he didn't yet know just how aggressive Jerry was.

It was still a nightmare how he played the hand, but let's try to imagine we don't have a stone cold read on Jerry when analyzing. This was near the start of the final table.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
different line for Lee Childs???

Jerry is so aggressive this would have been a great spot to C/R...how would u of played it 2p2?

[/ QUOTE ]



Ah, but he didn't yet know just how aggressive Jerry was.

It was still a nightmare how he played the hand, but let's try to imagine we don't have a stone cold read on Jerry when analyzing. This was near the start of the final table.


[/ QUOTE ]

its a bad fold.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

this is the most ridiculous laydown in the history of televised poker! I dont know how these guys make final tables.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

shove pre ldo

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

I blame Lee Childs for everything, he should of knock this clow out with qq and it would be all good

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

so instead of busting out 9th, yang went on to win 8 millions. i wonder what a day at a poker table is like for childs these days.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

Question - Would you rather be someone that makes some bad folds every once in a while or a calling station.

Now I'm not saying DN is a calling station but I sure have seen a lot of threads saying he always makes bad calls.

I wish ESPN would have faked it at first showing Yang had AA and there would be threads talking about how easy of a laydown the QQ was in that spot.

No, I'm not Childs [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

Yang would have prayed for a jack and hit it, good laydown

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

childs took so noob scared money line that it makes me sick. I also think that when he turned to his father who said 'you do the right thing' or something like, that made him fold it.

Because he said right away 'I dont think i can lay this down'.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because he said right away 'I dont think i can lay this down'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't Childs say this when held 10,10 and not the QQ hand?

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Question - Would you rather be someone that makes some bad folds every once in a while or a calling station.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bad folds make baby Jesus cry.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

He does say "I don't think I can lay this down" to his Dad, who then tells him just to "keep playing how you've been playing", which seems to suggest for him to err on the side of caution.

I still don't understand how you can take an OOP jab for a large portion of your remaining stack on the flop, and then fold to a repop. It's so mindblowing. Even when Childs is folding doesn't seem sold on the idea that he's behind. I think his dad sold him on the idea to be cautious and wait for a better spot. Moran.

And why not shove preflop? Unbelievable.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

One player per hand.

Why wasn't he penalized for consulting with his Dad while the hand was still live with decisions yet to be made?

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

Let's not forget Childs also could have taken Yang out when he got bluffed off KK by Yang's QJ.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

Doesn't make sense to lead the flop, then fold after haivng invested this much of your stack. Despite it being early in the final table, Childs had to have some previous experience with Yang and thus could have easily put JJ/TT/AcXc in his range here.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let's not forget Childs also could have taken Yang out when he got bluffed off KK by Yang's QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]


not even close to being the same...Yang bet his gutter draw an Ace flopped...95% of 2p2ers would muck the KK in that spot

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
childs took so noob scared money line that it makes me sick. I also think that when he turned to his father who said 'you do the right thing' or something like, that made him fold it.

Because he said right away 'I dont think i can lay this down'.

[/ QUOTE ]


Their interactions made me slightly suspicious- I would have nixed it as the TD

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
different line for Lee Childs???

Jerry is so aggressive this would have been a great spot to C/R...how would u of played it 2p2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, but he didn't yet know just how aggressive Jerry was.

It was still a nightmare how he played the hand, but let's try to imagine we don't have a stone cold read on Jerry when analyzing. This was near the start of the final table.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your statement that he didn't yet know how aggressive Yang was is not correct. ESPN did a horrid job of illustrating this.

I watched the PPV, and this hand was around hand #11 and Yang had raised roughly 5 of the first 10 hands and won without a showdown. He was clearly playing very aggressively and I said at the time that the QQ fold was beyond horrible.

It is even more horrible when you consider that on the previous day, Yang had raised Child's 10's with A7 and bet $2M on a 9 or 8 high flop. Childs moved all in and Yang folded. Childs already had experience with Yang that Yang was capable of putting a lot of chips in the pot without a big hand.

ESPN's coverage really sucked - where was the rabbit cam to see what the turn and river would have been had Childs called?

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't make sense to lead the flop, then fold after haivng invested this much of your stack. Despite it being early in the final table, Childs had to have some previous experience with Yang and thus could have easily put JJ/TT/AcXc in his range here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what baffles me. With Jerry's aggrodonk image, stack, as well as the strength of Childs hand in relation to that board, how one could lay down QQ here amazes me.

Plus, Childs played it SO good up until the fold. He raised UTG, got reraised, smooth called the maniac, got a dry flop with no A or K, and then did a "weak" lead out into a guy who loves to come over the top of weakness with a myriad of hands.

The plan should of been "I'm leading to give this guy the opportunity to do something dumb"; he did, and Childs STILL couldn't pull the trigger.

If Jerry has a set, AA/KK......you just gotta tip your cap to the guy and call it a night.

Get it in the middle, brother!

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

I don`t know what you guys expect from amateur players other then to play like fish?

i`m much more disapointed from the huge mistakes that the so called Pros made then the clueless amateurs.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

Yeah, Hilm got a lot of gamble and he's a very good player, but he thought he could try and run over a gambling calling station/move in artist baffles me.

He had a good drawing hand with the 8d5d, but I think that's a spot to keep the pot small, get there, and THEN lower the boom on Jerry.

Although I don't know how much Hilm sat and saw how Jerry plays, but if the guy is going to overpush with A4 or whatever it was into 2 raisers during day 4 (and get there vs KK, obv), then I think he's going to call after betting PF and the 2 streets thereafter.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
childs took so noob scared money line that it makes me sick. I also think that when he turned to his father who said 'you do the right thing' or something like, that made him fold it.

Because he said right away 'I dont think i can lay this down'.

[/ QUOTE ]


yah, what the [censored] was with Dad giving advice during the hand.

And I realize he didn't really *say* anything, but god damn................STFU, Pops!


Lee childs...you [censored] blew it.
*Yang scream*

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

Bet 3/4 pot, call shove

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

watching the final table live...with no previous reads...it really/really/really seemed like Jerry Yang had AA and Lee Childs had QQ before they even showed the hands. Yang never hesitated for a moment with his re-raise preflop and his insta-push allin after Childs led out. This is the kind of storytelling during a hand that forces a fold.

(note: after watching the episodes leading up to the final table...i wasn't going to be surprised if Yang had JJ-TT or even ATcc, but AA-KK seemed so likely at the time...i may have mucked preflop)

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
watching the final table live...with no previous reads...it really/really/really seemed like Jerry Yang had AA and Lee Childs had QQ before they even showed the hands. Yang never hesitated for a moment with his re-raise preflop and his insta-push allin after Childs led out. This is the kind of storytelling during a hand that forces a fold.

(note: after watching the episodes leading up to the final table...i wasn't going to be surprised if Yang had JJ-TT or even ATcc, but AA-KK seemed so likely at the time...i may have mucked preflop)

[/ QUOTE ]

w...t.... Are you sure you watched the PPV coverage? Because the way you are remembering it is completely different than what I saw. I watched Jerry bet 10X bb preflop every other hand for the first 16 hands (actually I think it was more like 9/16). Given those circumstances, how the hell can you put Yang on KK or AA....

please tell me this is a level.
ZOMG its an instacall....

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
watching the final table live...with no previous reads...it really/really/really seemed like Jerry Yang had AA and Lee Childs had QQ before they even showed the hands. Yang never hesitated for a moment with his re-raise preflop and his insta-push allin after Childs led out. This is the kind of storytelling during a hand that forces a fold.

(note: after watching the episodes leading up to the final table...i wasn't going to be surprised if Yang had JJ-TT or even ATcc, but AA-KK seemed so likely at the time...i may have mucked preflop)

[/ QUOTE ]

w...t.... Are you sure you watched the PPV coverage? Because the way you are remembering it is completely different than what I saw. I watched Jerry bet 10X bb preflop every other hand for the first 16 hands (actually I think it was more like 9/16). Given those circumstances, how the hell can you put Yang on KK or AA....

please tell me this is a level.
ZOMG its an instacall....

[/ QUOTE ]

this was within the 1st 20-25 minutes of the final table of the WSOP Main Event. When Childs raised from UTG, (when he hadn't been involved in a pot yet) his range seemed to be TT+ or AQ/AK. What is someone's range from UTG+1 when re-raising a tight players' UTG raise? Generally, I would assume JJ-AA or AK. That's it. (and I would normally not even throw JJ in there.)

This was not an easy instacall. In the heat of the moment, it would've been very hard to put Yang on a hand Childs could beat.

(It's my assumption that Yang was "tilting" a little with the JJ which is why he made the re-raise so quickly, b/c he didn't get payed off at all for flopping the flush a few hands before...and wanted to play a big pot to get the chips he thought he should already have...but no one at the table would've known that)

I think it's fairly common to overplay a medium-high strength hand after not getting payed off with a lock a few hands before.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let's not forget Childs also could have taken Yang out when he got bluffed off KK by Yang's QJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

The only way that hand results in Yang getting knocked out is if somehow they both see the river and Childs ends up making kings full. Not likely.

The QQ vs. JJ was a totally different situation in which Yang was willing to go broke on the flop. He was not willing to go broke in the other hand with just a gutter.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
how do you fold qq there with less then 50 bb's?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Have no heart
2) Play scared
3) Disregard everything you know about your opponent
4) Pay no attention to how much of your stack you have already committed
5) Put Yang on AcKc and wuss out

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
different line for Lee Childs???

Jerry is so aggressive this would have been a great spot to C/R...how would u of played it 2p2?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I would do everything exactly the same except I would call the shove within 20 seconds rather than making a speech about how huge a laydown I'm going to make and discussing it with a spectator.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

It seemed to me that Childs felt in his gut that he had the best hand, but he was just scared of potentially being knocked out early given the small chance he was wrong.

When you play for 4-5 long days, and make it to the WSOP main event final table, and fly out your friends and your family to come and watch you.... and then you are put in a semi-marginal situation where you could be gone in the first 20 minutes -- its easier to take the cautious route and wait for a better spot. Childs left himself with 4+ million by mucking.

I dont like his muck at all... but I feel like if it was day 1 or 2, or another tournament, he wouldve called immediately (i.e. his pocket Tens)

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[x] anything that involves the chips in the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

Your statement that he didn't yet know how aggressive Yang was is not correct. ESPN did a horrid job of illustrating this.

I watched the PPV, and this hand was around hand #11 and Yang had raised roughly 5 of the first 10 hands and won without a showdown. He was clearly playing very aggressively and I said at the time that the QQ fold was beyond horrible.

It is even more horrible when you consider that on the previous day, Yang had raised Child's 10's with A7 and bet $2M on a 9 or 8 high flop. Childs moved all in and Yang folded. Childs already had experience with Yang that Yang was capable of putting a lot of chips in the pot without a big hand.

ESPN's coverage really sucked - where was the rabbit cam to see what the turn and river would have been had Childs called?

[/ QUOTE ]

completely agree, i watched the PPV also and jerry had a wide range of hands at that point he moved all in with JJ, that is an easy call, and just played horriblly, Plus last weeks telecast showed him and jerry playing at the same table so he had to know how aggressive jerry was.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

I wonder if Childs is receiving constant [censored] about this hand now, wherever he's playing live.

FWIW I don't think it's the easiest call ever. Yang can't have expected Childs to fold, and Childs knows this, which greatly reduces the possibility of a draw. So Childs figures Yang thinks he's good, which he did. Does Yang even do that with TT with all the strength Childs has shown pre and post flop? Maybe. 99 doesn't seem too likely. It's very possible Childs was behind Yang's range there by 2-1.

Which I think is about what he was getting to call. But man if there's one place you can make a lot of money by just surviving, it's the WSOPME final table. Look at Tuan Lam. Norm and Lon were bagging on his fold to the money strategy. I'll fold into an extra $3M any day. And he was ugly miracle river away from a real good shot at winning.

Anyway I still think it's a bad fold, but not a trivial call by any means.

Re: Child\'s QQ -v- Yang\'s JJ
 

I think he was getting nearly 3:1 on his money here.

I did a Poker Stove on Yang's hand range. It's a pretty tight range, but even if you include 77, 44, 22, it's 60/40 in favor of Yang. It's a clear call. Might have even included other hands that Childs has beat like 88, 99, naked AK, AQcc. It's a call.

172,260 games 0.003 secs 57,420,000 games/sec

Board: 7c 4d 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.777% 44.13% 01.65% 76020 2835.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 54.223% 52.58% 01.65% 90570 2835.00 { TT+, 77, AcKc }