Live play Tendencies ....
 

I'm playing live $1/2 brick,mort and want to ask LIVE players what Tendencies they run into. (hand donks play, betting patterns, tells (yeah right) etc etc. Thank you 2p2 for the wisdom. fishcakes for life!!

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

this is probably getting locked real quick

i see a lot of players limp/call w/ any suited cards regardless of your PF raise. I've had people call me w/ K2 suited when I raise to 25 PF (4 limpers), flop comes Q22. Good think I had pocket queens. loltrickedme

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

People disregard position. They will limp UTG much more frequently than online.
As far as hands, as Diamond said, people play suited cards quite frequently

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing live $1/2 brick,mort and want to ask LIVE players what Tendencies they run into. (hand donks play, betting patterns, tells (yeah right) etc etc. Thank you 2p2 for the wisdom. fishcakes for life!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll break it down into the seperate things you asked for. NOTE, this will be different at higher levels, this is specific for the 1/2 game that you asked about.

Hands donks play: Most of the true donks have a very strict rule about hand selection, they make sure that the dealer actualy gave them two cards. Once a live donk limps, he will call raises "to protect his children"

Betting patterns: On this one, I have to seperate the donks from the skilled LAGs. You will be able to spot the difference pretty quickly. Single pair hands will be WAY overplayed. Limping with marginal hands becomes profitable for a skilled LAG since you will be paid off nicely when you hit. Live 1/2 players will gladly stack off with TPGK even if they are 200-300 blinds deep. Also, live 1/2 plays much bigger than online. The "standard" PFR is $15-$30 instead of the 3-5 BBs you see online.

Tells: The old rule of "weak means strong and strong means weak" will come in handy. Live low limit players will tend to give out a lot of information through table talk. As far as specific physical tells, they are not as reliable as betting patterns but still useful.

Hope this helps, live play has sick variation but is quite profitable. I definantly prefer it over online.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

What canvasbck wrote is really good -- and true. I, too, prefer live.

Ditto the any two suited cards. And live 1/2 donks will chase almost anything with little regard to pot odds, implied odds, etc. If any flush/straight hits the river, regardless of how backdoor it was, if they start betting, they probably hit it.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

Limp/call much more frequent. Huge preflop raises much more common. Lack of positional element. No existing betting line to take that will get someone off a flush draw. Very obvious physical tells such as staring directly at you and saying "check" loudly because they want a free card. Never thinking it's remotely possible that you have TT or 8x on a T88 rainbow board if you lead out.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

Live 1/2 NL players will gladly pay any sized bet when they are 4-flushed or open-ended after the flop. They have no regard for the pot odds associated with their draw, and usually don't care if their draw is to the nuts (i.e., still willingly calling huge bets with baby flush draws or when facing a paired board). It's great for you when the math holds up, but sucks when the draw hits despite getting your money in good.

I don't see this as much on-line... at least not playing these draws passively. On-line, I think players are more likely to be playing nut draws, and when they do, they are more likely to take the action to you by betting them. Live play seems more passive.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

The main thing is... there are no Doomswitch accounts live.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is probably getting locked real quick

[/ QUOTE ]

this kind of thread is fine, its not strategy. If you post a hand history then it gets moved.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

All posts are great. TYVM!

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

My short list:

1. Weak means strong and vice versa is a fairly reliable tell. You need to be sure who is doing this consistently and how they are portraying it.

2. Players behind you pf will make obvious gestures if they are going to fold. Look to your left and figure out the tight players that take an early look and then hold their cards in a certain way ready for release. They are giving you the button.

3. There are some very talkative players at the table. If they suddenly shut up, watch out.

4. I may be off here but I have found that most live players don't like to be bluffed so I reduce my bluffing frequency, especially on the river. Stealing a large pot is especially difficult. I still do basic bluffs like cbet and bet a checked button.

5. When the flop comes, whether you are in the hand or not, watch the players and not the cards. It will become obvious what some players are thinking about a flop by how they react, which could be a range of things like staring at the flop (usually missed it) or glancing quickly at their chips (usually hit it).

6. And the oldest one in the book which is obvious everyone should know not to do it or use it a reverse tell. There are 3 flush cards on board and a player checks his cards. It is almost certain that he doesn't have a flush.

7. Some players at the table will be good. Don't use the above on them and only play against them with good hands and position. You have A9s? Just fold against these guys. Your source of money is the other players.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

I think 2 and 3 are hugely important.

2 is good for chipping away small pots - I would also expand it to post flop. You can often tell that people whiffed the flop and have mentally checked-out of the hand. 95% of my bluffs come here; most often on the turn after a checked-around flop (but I will do it on any street that I see it probably working).

4 - I dunno about this one. People will call down more live (passive calling station tendancies are common), and those guys are tough to bluff unless they give off the tell above.

6 - totally varies by player - you almost never see someone with a made flush, but they'll generally have one high card in the color (if its three hearts, they generally have a big heart or diamond).

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

One more thing occurred to me about live 1/2 NL play: because lots of players don't play with regard to pot odds, their bet sizing is all off and is something that you can exploit. For example, preflop, a raiser may make it $15 to go w/ AA and get 4 callers. Although there's $75 in the pot and 5 players, the raiser will often lead into highly coordinated boards for only $25 because that seems like a lot of money to him. You can take advantage of this tendency if you play solid position poker and keep track of the pot odds being offered to you that your opponent is ignoring.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

On the same line as the last post: the min-raise. I've seen it used both with a monster and as a scared bet. More often than not it means a monster, but you have to learn to identify who min-raises with a hand like TP/weak kicker.

From my experience, the average live 1/2NL player is weak-tight/loose. Sizing your bets and playing in position are very important, both to get max value and to bluff effectively. There is a good chapter On Sklansky's book on NLHE about this topic, I highly recommend it.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
One more thing occurred to me about live 1/2 NL play: because lots of players don't play with regard to pot odds, their bet sizing is all off and is something that you can exploit. For example, preflop, a raiser may make it $15 to go w/ AA and get 4 callers. Although there's $75 in the pot and 5 players, the raiser will often lead into highly coordinated boards for only $25 because that seems like a lot of money to him. You can take advantage of this tendency if you play solid position poker and keep track of the pot odds being offered to you that your opponent is ignoring.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. As a continuation to this line of thinking, (because I see it constantly) a lot of the weak tight/loose recreational players will continue betting $20-30 on the turn and river whether the pot is $50 or $200 with a big pair or even something near the nuts. Because, as the last guy said "$25 is a lot of money".

2. Most of the more passive players are terrified of betting their top pair unless they have the ace kicker. They will call it all the way down for some huge bets, but won't raise with it.
* Most recent example is a lady who check/called all the way with QQ on a 10 high board because "I knew that as soon as I bet the A or K would hit the board."*

3. Related to the first two: check/call, check/call, bet usually means a strong hand, not that they are betting a busted draw.

4. The average (even above average) Live 1/2 player has no real concept of how to extract value from huge hands post-flop. They usually just jam the pot as soon as possible and rarely give the pre-flop raiser a chance to bet at it. So, a $30 bet into a $10 pot or AI for $150 into a $40 pot often means they crushed the flop. This saves me a lot of money on continuation bets and pocket pairs post flop.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

1. They didn't travel all the way to the casino to fold.
2. Most decisions about the entire hand are made on the flop, so if your bluffing and get called on the flop strongly consider giving up.
3. A large portion will stack off with TPNK, they are never folding 2 pair or a straight. Per above if you have it jam the pot on the turn and river.
4. As someone said the game is much much bigger, standard raise is 5x-10x the BB and even those are usually multi way flops
5. Most players do not change gears, if they start out playing one way they almost always continue to play the same way.
6. Players value bet/raise on the river without much so blocking bets tend not to work.
7. When a player move it in, they usually have it.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

Live players tend to believe that 2:1 odds means they should call. They have no concept about putting their opponent on a hand or range of hands that would crush those odds. As you get closer to the river you can take advantage of this by sizing your bets correctly.

Live players have no understanding of position. Yes, they know what it is but they have no idea how to use it to their advantage. The first time you see some guy get up for a break on his button you'll break out in a smile. You'll see players raising ATo preflop UTG+1 all the time. And you'll see them get 6 calls and the last 3 callers will all say the same thing: "Now I have to call because of pot odds."

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

The huge preflop raises always amused me- (15-25 dollar preflop raise at a 1/2) I once started consistently making raises to 6 dollars preflop in a Borgata 1/2 game and soon (after about 15 minutes) I had the whole table gearing down their raises. It seemed like they were sheep looking for a leader. Then a wild cannon sat down and started to raise it up big every hand and soon the others went back to their old ways. It was kinda funny to watch.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
You'll see players raising ATo preflop UTG+1 all the time. And you'll see them get 6 calls and the last 3 callers will all say the same thing: "Now I have to call because of pot odds."

[/ QUOTE ]
This one makes me laugh a little on the inside everytime they do it. 92o on the BB, 5 callers to the UTG raise: "pot odds, call!!" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'll see players raising ATo preflop UTG+1 all the time. And you'll see them get 6 calls and the last 3 callers will all say the same thing: "Now I have to call because of pot odds."

[/ QUOTE ]
This one makes me laugh a little on the inside everytime they do it. 92o on the BB, 5 callers to the UTG raise: "pot odds, call!!" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, poker theory discussions at a 1/2 table can be a riot to listen to.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

Bad live players tend to value absolute hand strength over relative handstrength. Bad live players almost never 3 bet w/o a hand, but will call huge 3 bets w/ suited broadway cards. If someone opens for 12-15 in a 1-2 game, don't be afraid to push for a ridiculous amount. You will get looked up a lot if you gauged your player right.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
The huge preflop raises always amused me- (15-25 dollar preflop raise at a 1/2) I once started consistently making raises to 6 dollars preflop in a Borgata 1/2 game and soon (after about 15 minutes) I had the whole table gearing down their raises. It seemed like they were sheep looking for a leader. Then a wild cannon sat down and started to raise it up big every hand and soon the others went back to their old ways. It was kinda funny to watch.

[/ QUOTE ]

A $6 raise in a live 1/2 NL game is widely, and normally correctly, regarded as a pot sweetner. It is a recipe for an 8-handed flop, with a great pot, that will be played by everyone involved like a 2/4 limit game. I would never regard anyone who makes that raise as having a big hand preflop, and if he did have a big hand, I would gloat (silently) when I busted his aces with the 87suited that I called with on the button behind six other players.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

Massive overbets on the river get called by bad players.

Bad players always play tricky. They like to bet when they miss, and play cute when they hit. Always.

Value bet them into oblivion with strong hands.

Guys who lose big pots, but still have a couple hundred left, often begin pushing with very marginal hands while tilting off the last of their stack.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The huge preflop raises always amused me- (15-25 dollar preflop raise at a 1/2) I once started consistently making raises to 6 dollars preflop in a Borgata 1/2 game and soon (after about 15 minutes) I had the whole table gearing down their raises. It seemed like they were sheep looking for a leader. Then a wild cannon sat down and started to raise it up big every hand and soon the others went back to their old ways. It was kinda funny to watch.

[/ QUOTE ]

A $6 raise in a live 1/2 NL game is widely, and normally correctly, regarded as a pot sweetner. It is a recipe for an 8-handed flop, with a great pot, that will be played by everyone involved like a 2/4 limit game. I would never regard anyone who makes that raise as having a big hand preflop, and if he did have a big hand, I would gloat (silently) when I busted his aces with the 87suited that I called with on the button behind six other players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont disagree, and I wasnt playing any monsters, and the table went back in no time- it was just fun to try.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Massive overbets on the river get called by bad players.

Bad players always play tricky. They like to bet when they miss, and play cute when they hit. Always.

Value bet them into oblivion with strong hands.

Guys who lose big pots, but still have a couple hundred left, often begin pushing with very marginal hands while tilting off the last of their stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with that last one. Everyone thinks you are tilting off money, however the last three times I have seen this spot the tabled hand was AA, AA, KK.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Massive overbets on the river get called by bad players.

Bad players always play tricky. They like to bet when they miss, and play cute when they hit. Always.

Value bet them into oblivion with strong hands.

Guys who lose big pots, but still have a couple hundred left, often begin pushing with very marginal hands while tilting off the last of their stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with that last one. Everyone thinks you are tilting off money, however the last three times I have seen this spot the tabled hand was AA, AA, KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the player, Ive seen some guys go all in with 120 bucks on AT after losing big pots.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'll see players raising ATo preflop UTG+1 all the time. And you'll see them get 6 calls and the last 3 callers will all say the same thing: "Now I have to call because of pot odds."

[/ QUOTE ]
This one makes me laugh a little on the inside everytime they do it. 92o on the BB, 5 callers to the UTG raise: "pot odds, call!!" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, you don't like taking flops with the worst players in the world?

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'll see players raising ATo preflop UTG+1 all the time. And you'll see them get 6 calls and the last 3 callers will all say the same thing: "Now I have to call because of pot odds."

[/ QUOTE ]
This one makes me laugh a little on the inside everytime they do it. 92o on the BB, 5 callers to the UTG raise: "pot odds, call!!" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, you don't like taking flops with the worst players in the world?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not with 92o OOP. I'm not that good... yet.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

I took my son (online player) to play in Florida and he was complaining about the raises. Of course you have to buy in short, he would see a raise of 15 and 3-4 callers with a small or medium pocket pair and fold "because he didn't have set odds" with only 80 behind.

I am still laughing.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The huge preflop raises always amused me- (15-25 dollar preflop raise at a 1/2) I once started consistently making raises to 6 dollars preflop in a Borgata 1/2 game and soon (after about 15 minutes) I had the whole table gearing down their raises. It seemed like they were sheep looking for a leader. Then a wild cannon sat down and started to raise it up big every hand and soon the others went back to their old ways. It was kinda funny to watch.

[/ QUOTE ]

A $6 raise in a live 1/2 NL game is widely, and normally correctly, regarded as a pot sweetner. It is a recipe for an 8-handed flop, with a great pot, that will be played by everyone involved like a 2/4 limit game. I would never regard anyone who makes that raise as having a big hand preflop, and if he did have a big hand, I would gloat (silently) when I busted his aces with the 87suited that I called with on the button behind six other players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont disagree, and I wasnt playing any monsters, and the table went back in no time- it was just fun to try.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand... Actually, this type of play lends itself well to a steal in position. Let's say a few people limp, then the CO raises to $6 or $8, and you're on the Button or in one of the blinds. If you have the right table image, you can re-raise to $25 or $30 here and take down the pot pre-flop. If you get the hands heads-up with the "raiser," a CB on the flop is also usually enough to end the hand and is +EV.

I do think that your table image is key to this move, however, and you have to make sure that the raiser is not a calling station. Also, I won't try this with ATC in this situation, but my re-raising range is a lot wider than it would be if I were staring at $12 to $20 raise in front of me.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
6. And the oldest one in the book which is obvious everyone should know not to do it or use it a reverse tell. There are 3 flush cards on board and a player checks his cards. It is almost certain that he doesn't have a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this one is so well known that I make a point of it to always recheck my cards when I know I've made my flush.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Massive overbets on the river get called by bad players.

Bad players always play tricky. They like to bet when they miss, and play cute when they hit. Always.

Value bet them into oblivion with strong hands.

Guys who lose big pots, but still have a couple hundred left, often begin pushing with very marginal hands while tilting off the last of their stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with that last one. Everyone thinks you are tilting off money, however the last three times I have seen this spot the tabled hand was AA, AA, KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean. Sometimes when I lose a big pot I'll pick up a monster in the next hand and I think about how the rest of the table will perceive my raise. I can pretty much guarantee an extra 2 people in the pot. But if I slow play them and no one raises behind then I get the fully monty. Either way, it can be brutal.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'll see players raising ATo preflop UTG+1 all the time. And you'll see them get 6 calls and the last 3 callers will all say the same thing: "Now I have to call because of pot odds."

[/ QUOTE ]
This one makes me laugh a little on the inside everytime they do it. 92o on the BB, 5 callers to the UTG raise: "pot odds, call!!" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It never ceases to amaze me that I almost never see a re-raise from any of these callers unless they have the hand there. All they need to do is push it once in while and watch the original raiser wilt. Everyone after him will fold like a deck of cards (no pun intended).

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

It still boggles my mind how a lot of people just don't pay attention, or they only remember what they choose to remember.

They won't notice that I haven't played a hand in 3 hours, and now all of a sudden, I'm 4 betting all in from the BB. They have to call because I obviously don't have a hand. And why don't I have a hand? Because I showed down a 7 10 off 6 hours earlier that I had re-raised someone with.

I can table one bluff, and be guaranteed that I'll get as much action as I want for the next 3-5 hours. Bluff, nuts nuts nuts nuts nuts nuts nuts, bluff, nuts nuts nuts nuts nuts. It's like shampoo instructions. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
It still boggles my mind how a lot of people just don't pay attention, or they only remember what they choose to remember.

They won't notice that I haven't played a hand in 3 hours, and now all of a sudden, I'm 4 betting all in from the BB. They have to call because I obviously don't have a hand. And why don't I have a hand? Because I showed down a 7 10 off 6 hours earlier that I had re-raised someone with.

I can table one bluff, and be guaranteed that I'll get as much action as I want for the next 3-5 hours. Bluff, nuts nuts nuts nuts nuts nuts nuts, bluff, nuts nuts nuts nuts nuts. It's like shampoo instructions. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT my typical private game strategy is to play every hand for the first round, then play super tight the rest of the night... They never pick up on it

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

I see this a lot too! To me it seems sort of [censored] up. Firstly, I don't really understand the $15 to go pre-flop. Should I change my raising criteria then?

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
4. The average (even above average) Live 1/2 player has no real concept of how to extract value from huge hands post-flop. They usually just jam the pot as soon as possible and rarely give the pre-flop raiser a chance to bet at it. So, a $30 bet into a $10 pot or AI for $150 into a $40 pot often means they crushed the flop. This saves me a lot of money on continuation bets and pocket pairs post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a very good point! Many of the live players get MUBS when they have a great hand, and want to make sure they don't get beat.
They definitely lose a LOT of money this way not being patient. Exploit it!

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

I'll add:

People are extremely willing to stack off with an overpair. Since most live players only reraise aces and kings preflop its pretty easy to put them on a hand. Nothing better than stacking a player for 300 big bets with your low two pair then listening to them bitch about how bad you are for calling their $25 raise preflop.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since most live players only reraise aces and kings preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know where you've been playing but I don't think I've ever played there. I've often seen pre-flop raises from early position with q10o or any pocket pair.

Re: Live play Tendencies ....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since most live players only reraise aces and kings preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know where you've been playing but I don't think I've ever played there. I've often seen pre-flop raises from early position with q10o or any pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about re-raises. I probably phrased that poorly but while obviously there are various types of players there are a large number of players that only re-raise aces and kings. I'd say at an average live 1/2NL table there are at least two or three of these players.